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Eric Levai:
Welcome to counterintelligence. This is Eric Levai.. Today's guest is Muelle She wrote co-host Jaleesa Johnson. Forensic News thanks our patrons Andrei Dunca, Angela Jackson, Zacharias Z-Score Kaminsky, Sacha Millstone, Craig Pierce, Jim Rice and Greg Schnieder. Support forensic news and counter intelligence on Patreom. Without further ado, here's the show.
Jaleesa Johnson, welcome to counter intelligence.
Jaleesa Johnson:
Hey, thanks for having me.
Eric Levai:
This has been a long time coming. Its so great to have you here. How are you?
Jaleesa Johnson:
I'm good. Yeah, we've definitely been meaning to collaborate for quite a while. Mueller was born. No. Yeah. Yes. Since we got way back.
Yeah. Mueller going back to the 50s. Definitely. I think at least since I first met you, the mother, she wrote team at Politico. We met in person.
Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. That was that was a good time actually. That was it's until you've been a politico and you don't really know like what it's going to. It's one of those things you. It's like the matrix. You have to see it in person.
Exactly. Yeah. You got to take the red pill. Yeah. Yeah.
I was thinking, um, I shouldn't say red pill now because I mean the whole different thing is that there is a matrix for coming out to the center of it.
But I was gonna say, are you going to put a con this year in Nashville?
Yeah, that's a great question. I need to talk to the team of forensic news. And I I have an open invitation of Politico. Just because we've the Miller Time podcast went there so many times that we they they sort of know us. And and so anyway, I'd really like to go. And it isn't Nashville.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, so it can be nice if you go to the right places. Yeah. Great barbecue. You know, they have white barbecue sauce which is really interesting, you know. Yeah. Their wishes.
Well we'll see. That would be great. And of course Julie says so. Of course you're the host of the the co-host of the hit podcast, Mother, she wrote. And now also the Daily Beans and and The Rachel Maddow Show.
Yeah. You trifecta.
How how does one. Let me ask you first of Liza, how does one do three podcasts and at once I guess it just kind of happens.
Yeah. Definitely more than planned. So I feel like when you have like triplets, it's just like, oh, cool, this here. But yeah, definitely Sy with more sure.
Being weekly and then actually still weekly. But you know, doing occasional short middle of the week pods. Yeah. Daily beans daily obviously. And then the Rachel Maddow Show is kind of my like spare time around those coupons. And now I'm in a groove where they're all kind of you know, so my weekly. So that's nice.
There's always content.
That's amazing. Yeah. How many podcasts do you think you can handle? Like like 15 Rue Cleanup.
Kevin Smith has about six.
And he's like one of my favorite people. He says that podcasting is just like his favorite thing ever. And I just think it's cool because like he he juggles all those podcasts and he's also making movies and just being awesome. So I feel like I'll do as many as I think I want to because I have all these side project ideas, too. So even like mini series might come and go. But yeah, podcasting is such a broad medium that I just yeah, I'm open to whatever it really is.
I know that I can say. I mean, by the way, I just want to say it's great to talk to like a like a fellow comedian and not have to also just not have to worry about something, a joke and kind of hang in the air like I love everyone we've interviewed, but not you know, it is not everybody's like gets it.
Exactly. Yeah. That's what I love about comedians who are always like it's kind of like a blessing and a curse because in this case, it worked out great, cause you're a great guy. But sometimes when I'm in a room full of comedians, of course, I'm like competing for the punch line. We're constantly like, you know, with this depends on the type of comedian. But generally speaking, we're always looking for for that laughs.
Yeah, I was always the opposite, like a you know, a jerk. Like when comedians would go out after the show, I was always like, you know, let's go. Let's go hang out. Let's go to a bar. But not like I never wanted to just go sit in a diner and continue telling jokes. I was like, no, let's be people. Let's be real. Exactly.
Yeah, yeah. That's what I love, too, about podcasting, especially when you're not necessarily on comedy category. But you are a comedian. You feel like you can be more real and you have that long form dialogue and not necessarily chase the punchline, but just kind of let it come naturally.
So, you know, I you know, I just kind of wanted to get into the news and really, I guess really not pull any punches. I mean, we look at the president, eight states as a open white nationalist. It's a shocking thing to me. Yeah. I mean, I know you've talked about that of plenty. But, yeah, it's it's it's still unbelievable. What I wanted to ask you was, how do you see the next two years in this country till the election playing out, Julie?
Well, funny enough, I've been trying to figure out, like what historical events my align with what we're experiencing now because like, I never really much of a history buff. But. I always find that there's something that's happened before that is a nice lesson. You know, our guidelines for how to maybe prevent it from happening. Yes.
And I feel like right now we're like in a pre it's really sad to say, but a priest civil war kind of feeling. I don't know. It's like the super volcano. I don't know how much time we have. It might be decades. It might, you know, a few years.
But I feel like people are just so angry and so polarized and it's being exploited from so many different angles. Like that's kind of what the Civil War was about, according to all the podcast I listened to. So it seems like people were mad because they were like, oh, you're trying to take my place. And so they had all these different compromises. And this in the end, it just didn't work because people felt like, what, slavery was just too awful to continue by any compromise. And so they shed blood for it. And right now, I feel like the thing that's kind of aligning with this is guns, because guns and the need for like the Second Amendment, above all, is heavily tied to xenophobia and just white nationalism. Not that I wanted to be that way, but that's what it seems to be masked by.
A lot of people think. I mean, it's it's clearly true that the civil war and the the what led to that and the tensions have really just never ended. It's just kind of continued. And we can see that totally.
We can see that in the Trump supporters. And and on the other side, people like us who do not are not down with this.
To be to give the understanding and hopefully to say the least. Yeah.
It's almost like back to the future. Like it's like you can see the Trump supporter now that's like clearly like their grandfather who was fighting for the, you know, and against the union.
It's it's weird.
Yeah. We need a realistic back to the future. Not that they weren't super realistic, but just like a more like historically accurate or like racially accurate, like just, you know, like go back to the future and like, you know, I got to fight back. It's like fuck slavery or something. Oh, can I say if I come here.
I'm sorry. I say, oh, yeah, you know. Yeah. You know, you're no more than anyone, right? There was. Oh yeah. This is a PBS podcast, actually. Sorry. Go ahead.
You know, it's amazing. You think about the things that have been ruined. So many things are never going to like never gonna be the same. But Back to the Future is one of them, because as as I'm sure you already know, like Trump was the inspiration for for Biff.
You know what? I always saw the similarities, but I didn't know. I never did my research. So he was my inspiration.
He was no, he. They didn't interview with one of the not Robert Zemeckis, but the other writer. And he was like, yeah, that's. But we never thought that this would happen.
Yeah. That's crazy. Oh, my gosh. It's unbelievable. This is. It's a good lesson because I always tell myself that when I think things aren't possible, I went to the movies that we've created mostly in the sci fi area. And I'm like, well, if humans. It's kind of like the rule about porn, you know, like if you think it, therefore it's like possible or like, I don't know.
I think therefore I am like basically I feel like my thing that you think it I never heard that were totally different ideas. Yeah, but oh, there's a rule for it.
For porn like it's like rule forty two or something. It's some number. It's like if you think of a porn category as crazy either, maybe then therefore it exists like just by you thinking yes we'll get a chance that it exists. Yeah. But you know these things are obviously like very pure ridicule.
The idea I think is that if movies can have something like, oh, this will never happen. But at the same time, it's really just, you know, in this case, capitalism gone terribly wrong. Then it is very likely to happen as a matter of time, like these sci fi movies about aliens.
I'm like, man, that's crazy. But in reality, I don't know. Have we stormed Area 51? Do we know? I think.
Yeah. So many things, of course, are not possible in movies. But so many things also seem like they could be. So I just wonder like whenever I think, oh, this is impossible, I try to question myself.
I know it's going to be an interesting interesting is not the right word, but the next two years are going to be something. They're gonna be something for the history books.
Yeah. Yeah. I don't even know. Like I don't think it'll be a full on war. Like maybe it'll be similar to like, you know, it's well below. Like, I just feel like there's something happening now where people are starting to die a lot more frequently. And I mean I know that I learned recently that the civil war isn't like the biggest bloodshed battle on American soil, you know, because if you count the Native Americans and you're talking millions, but there were still seven hundred and fifty thousand Americans that died from it or not. And that's, I think, just a soldier's leg. Then you have the civilians and, you know, just random casualties. It's crazy how many people died over this, but I don't think it happens all at once either.
It's just over time.
Absolutely. On your new show, The Rachel Maddow Show, I know you covered the Eric Garner case. And I I've been following that very closely. It's I was one if I could just really get your thoughts on where we are in that case and just do anything on your mind in that case.
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it it shows like, OK, I was talking about this on the which means to better late than never. I say when it comes to admitting the truth. Right. That he he did something wrong. But I also feel like that, quote, justice delayed is justice denied is also true. So it's like, yeah, I'm glad that they admitted it. But it's also too late. It's both. And it was too late when he killed them. There are plenty of opportunities, even the commissioner said, where he could have, you know, painfully to let Eric go. You know, he, like, made his point. They got him on the ground. So it just shows that like the worst for the value of, I think a black person, America is like, you know, it just shows how long it took for them to even admit that it was wrong.
It's it's just so it's all these things to every American should be so outraged because. It's just. Yeah. I mean, what can you say you. You can be you can be executed for selling loose cigarettes like that.
Yeah. That's crazy. That's crazy. Especially considering like all the things that we see people in these white collar crimes getting away with. And the damage that they're going on on, you know, the humanitarian crisis we're having now at the border, like the idea of our government detaining people potentially indefinitely and saying that it's because they're the savages. You know, it's like this is crazy shit that people like the wrong people are being detained right now and, you know, like.
Yeah.
So it just it blows my mind that they're able to deal with that. And meanwhile, at the same in the same time, when you have someone like Eric Garner and countless other people who are killed and jailed for so much less. It's a race war, I think. And so many different ways. And it was designed that way. And I think you have moments where it's like it's better than others. But right now it's definitely in that worst moment and seems to be getting even more worse. And I just wonder what's what's it going to take for it to end? It's almost like climate change and global warming is like a month. You pump the brakes, you know, and all these different areas where people are systematically oppressed, you're still going to have problems. You know, some you know, we'll see. But yeah, I think voting blue, you know.
Yeah, that's that's just across the board. That's right. Look, I always like I've got friends who are a cop, so as opposed to some of my other friends who are way more left wing than I am. I always thought it was an interesting job. And I what I'm trying to say is like I'm I'm not a personal approaches this from any kind of even anti police perspective.
But I this is this is that this cannot happen. You can't. You get to be killed on a street corner in broad daylight for a minute, not even when it's not even a misdemeanor. I don't know what that is.
Yeah, I literally wouldn't even know. Like, what does he do? How many guys like the person you're talking about? And there's so many of them, too. It's like when you mentioned that the traffic stop incidents, there's countless of those events, too. And I feel like maybe these are the ways that these these cops, as you may call them, maybe bad apples. I can agree that not every cop is racist. You know, just like I would say not. Not every Republican. But the bad apples do enough damage that the ones that are not races are probably not doing enough to stop it. Like most people don't want to start a revolution. That's how you end up with things progressing. You know, for for worse, it's not that most of humanity is evil, it's just that most of them are probably a little too, I want to say cowardly, cause that's implying that I mean, it is negative, but it's rude to say cowardly. It's just, you know, looking the other way. It's too easy. And most people do it because it's so easy and it's lazy, you know, and it's hard. I think there's a quote about like there's two kinds of evil people. I don't know if it makes you evil, but the effect, the effects of you looking away are evil.
So in that case, sure, you're indirectly evil. I don't know how that would make someone feel if it's enough to change their mind, but just it does make a difference.
Yeah. Well, looking away as. Yeah. There's there's a lot of quotes about that. I mean obviously the most famous one from the you know, the Holocaust, I didn't speak up and then there was no one left to speak up for me.
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that we're seeing so many similarities with the Holocaust now and just like the idea of a Jewish movie being attacked and in ways that I grew up reading history books, never thinking this would be something in my lifetime, I was like, whoa, Hitler was crazy, you know? Thank God I'm in America.
You know, all these thing that the kid that I thought, you know, Obama thing calling our president my racism over. I obviously thought things like that. You know, that was just a teenager growing up. And, you know, we had our moments of this. And if it wasn't racism, definitely it is louder now than it was before. And I feel like it's only going to get louder. I don't think it's just going to suddenly stop unless we stop it. So that's why I feel like things might get more violent because they already or are violent. Just they're one sided. You know, with the violence right now. So we're mostly one sided.
Yeah. I mean, look, scary.
It is scary. I'm Jewish. I. When I when I saw this happening, just this stuff in the last couple days, I just look at that as a direct. No, I look at what he said is no different than if I was in the street. And this has also happened and somebody attempted to confront me about it like I don't. There's no difference to me.
Right. Right. That's that's the way it should be. Everyone should look at it that way. But we don't collectively.
Yeah, that that's a problem. A lot of people don't. And, you know, like I everybody should look at it like you're gonna do what you're gonna do to protect yourself. But we're certainly not going to we're not going to go backwards in history.
Yeah. Yeah.
I really want to ask you as well about the 2020 race, which is heating up. I don't know. Where do you have any thoughts on where we are now in this this primary and just in general?
Yeah. Yeah, I was just joking on. I think really sure about how all of the candidates now she has become the cabinet and we should lock it down. And A.G. would say that that usually happens. I forget it has happened. And in some cases that I don't know why they don't just go for now, you know, and then figure out who's going to also run for Senate. You know, I see that a kick in the group that you said that.
I love it. He's adorable. It can't be a real. Yes. That's got to be a nickname. I just stuck with him and he's like, I accept that. Yeah, it's adorable.
So he's running for Senate. That's a great idea. Figure out. I don't see why we have to just like fight.
You know, at this point, I think the nation is so like at risk that they should be like, you know, like all rally behind Warren or something like this. Does anyone really have a problem with Warren that's still running? I guess some of the more moderate Democrats would like, for the most part, come in and retreat.
Yeah. My dad needs to stop biting wit. I like them all for the reasons.
You know, like generally speaking, justice, democracy, they all seem to represent. But in terms of this bickering, to see who is going to have the ultimate authority, I feel like that's going to to us like it's going to give Trump ammunition. We should just wrap it up now. We don't need another six months of this to figure out who's going to have what job. Now, I don't know. I wish I wish that were possible. It's not. But my fair picks obviously worn. I like Carmela. She'd be great as an A.G., though, because her polling is slipping. And like I said, the fight at this point, it shouldn't be about ego. It shouldn't be about politics. But of course, it's going to be because that's just what it is. But I think Trump has made this so toxic. And Putin is also making this so toxic that it's just at a point where we need to kind of change the rules a little bit, play the game differently, don't play along with what they're totally expecting. It's like we're playing chess and they know all of our moves. Like it's already they're already playing to knock over the whole chess board. So, like, why are we even bothering? You should just like do something different and just say, OK. This is a united front and we're doing it and we're going to win it as a completely almost unrelated Segway.
How after the last two days, how was Trump still in office?
Like, how close are you to say?
Yeah. People are scared. It's also about looking the other way because Trump attacked so many different community. He's like hitting them all. Some more than others, obviously. But for the most part, so many voters feel like they're almost unaffected. They're like, yeah, he's crazy, you know, bugs me. But I can turn off my TV and so unaffected. But now about the stock market is, you know, getting shaking and all these things like I feel like he's trying to appease a lot more people. But I mean, it's not going to work. I think in the end, there's enough people who are terrified that something's going to give. I'm just worried that Coons also prepared for that. Like they're going to come back even stronger with, you know, their disinformation campaigns and the election hacking. I mean, they feel like they're there are already 10 steps ahead of us. So it's just it's crazy. That's why he's still in office, because it's pure chaos and no one's prepared for this. We won't have to start thinking chaotically ourselves just to strike back. You know, we've got to fight fire with fire and not everybody's willing to do that. I don't just mean violence. I really don't don't like it.
I mean, like fighting them like strategically, but also like re really addressing things for what they are not dancing around like what racism is and what nationalism is and all these things like just calling it what it is. Like really drawing the line and stop attacking people that are drawing a line like AOC. Feel like she's just to this to that. It's right. She's exactly where we need to be because that's how far the right has pushed us. She's a moderate in my thinking, as far as the decency goes. So that's enough for me. But some people are afraid of, you know, even, I think, decent, nice liberal white people. Some of them are just like they feel less affected. So pissed off, but I feel like there are people who are more pissed off and like we need everyone to probably be a that.
Yeah, and you know, look, if you take him down like a comedian, right. I mean, that's that's what this whole thing is from the beginning. And we've I'm sure we've both said that. And no other people. There's even a comedian who's running for president who's bleep. Yeah. Yeah. Ben. Gleb. And so but it's true. Like whoever is facing this guy on the stage, that's how they need to. Look, they need. They need to hire a comedian, possibly one of us. Somebody on the campaign to tell them this is what's up.
Yeah. Because they're out of touch. Like across the board. The Republicans and Democrats. And I think not just comedians, but just people who are, I guess, just like AOC, like in the sense or even burning his brain, bringing a millionaire. But the dude is in touch. Whatever. He's smoking. People need to get on that.
You know, it's like I feel like if they don't have the right people in their circle, they can have too many. Yes. Men that are just like representing the 1 percent or their own interest. They need more open minded people. Like there are tons of people who are not in positions of power. That would be a great contribution to like the perspective of these people. Like these politicians. Yeah, joke writers included. You know, it's just I don't know how we could start that movement, but we should try to incorporate more regular folk, not just the traditional activist way, like, you know, volunteering at your national or your local headquarters. I think we should actually figure out a way to start utilizing artists with politicians by getting them to collab more. I don't know. I just I like what your which are getting that. I just can't quite put my finger on it. But we do need to have this coalition of like, hey, I'm working with this politician to, you know, just get them more in tune with the people.
It's got to be more organized.
And what it is, you know, in baseball, they have like a designated hitter. Like if they tell you what they want to win this put me in for the Trump debate. I'll demolish this guy in three seconds.
And then the real cool guy, you know, or yourself or like a wrestling match when you jack team someone in like let Warren tag me in for a couple of early rounds. Trump I don't have all my rose jokes ready.
Yeah. He won't even see it coming. Let's just mix it up. Let's get crazy.
Yeah, we'll tag. And why are we doing that. Yeah.
Oh say guys you're saying I was just going to say like I get the idea of traditional values and having a foundation of moral ground. I'm not saying that we should become morally obscene. And I'm sure that's subjective enough for people to have different ideas. But generally speaking, like Trump is morally obscene. Right. So I'm not saying we'd be like him. I'm just saying we just be crazy. You know, like comedians, we do things that are breaking the rules. But my favorite comedians, they do it for the right reasons. They do it without the idea of hurting anyone that doesn't deserve it. You know, like they don't want to necessarily be like a mean, you know, insult comedian, but a good rose comedian, someone who can might tear down a politician or just like a dictator, someone who like a position of power and actually make effective change like the John Oliver's routine. You know, Sandy, like those people, I think, are very, very powerful, probably more powerful than the politicians. And a lot of ways, even if more people are paying attention to them, we're like, oh, no, we got them to work more with the politicians. I don't know. I've no idea what I'm suggesting, but I'm really, really interested and just seeing a change and in reality, like getting everyone on the same wavelength a little more like, you know, just the country needs to be think that a thing like like a nice rave, you know, when everybody is in the same second trip, just completely that. Yeah, we're just way too polarized.
Well, you're actually right. It is going to be a roast. And that's what I like. I love that. Like, for example, Elizabeth Warren. I love that she's got it like like this. The tagline goes, she has a plan for everything. That's fantastic. But also, this is America. It's like I'm just gonna I'm gonna call it straight here. Like, people really aren't reading those plans right now. They want to see who's going to roast this guy into history, into the dustbin of history.
Right. Oh, my God. Her V.P. to just be a comedian, like she should highlight the truth about me. And I nominate Keith Carey or economist Biden. And they're great.
All right. Now, unions are there. They're great. They write like a lot of stuff.
But I do think that it would be it would be so smart if she got someone on her team that could be like, what? I know you've got these plans, but here's some punchlines to prepare for. Don't just try to hit him with back. I mean, you can have factual jokes, but sure, you don't come swinging with them because he's going to say things that he's expecting. Applause breaks. He's expecting laughter grown. He's just like, I respect comedians that usually go for the emotional rollercoaster experience. But he's our president. So it's terrifying. But it works in entertainment like generally speaking. So shoot and come with that. She's just going to be another Hillary. Unfortunately, the qualified woman who is boring to people and unlikable because she can't make them laugh.
It's and it's gonna be a tough spot. Whoever is in there. But I, like not everybody is maybe has the gift of comedy. But every one of them needs to understand how to respond live onstage to a person who has no sense of human decency.
Yeah. Just clap back and usually clap like you're funny, even if they're not punchline. You're sweating in a. Sure. So if they didn't have, like, clawbacks for you to go higher, it clap back. You know, everything that was going to say. Pocahontas have a club by for that. You know, like all kinds of things. Like when he said nasty women have a club back for that. We can totally play his own game and just study him and be like, I know everything you're gonna do. You're so predictable. I just got to match it with decency.
You're right. You know, they were saying, is somebody somebody who I forget to was but they wrote an article that said that you really want to hit this guy on stage, tell him that he was nothing without his father, because that's that's who's going to hurt.
Yeah. Yeah. Really? Oh, my God. We need to emotionally tear Trump down. Yeah. We need him to not want to get out of his greenroom. You know, like cause he's so used to owning the stage because Democrats are not traditionally funny unless they're on Comedy Central or. No. The idea that Democrats are adults and at least the current due to the Republicans, they used to be more don't like Reagan Republicans. I think we're very mature. But the idea is that now the GOP is just like pure chaos. Right. So I feel like Democrats need to stop trying to be the up front and just be the adult in the room and be the adult. That is so like just aware. Like read the room. Like be a performer and a genuine performer. But don't don't just try to stand by your plan. It's not enough. It's great. It's the bare minimum that we expect of a politician. But we need more because Trump has raised the bar to a crazy level where the whole country's attention span is just waiting for the next sound bite. So give him a soundbite, but make it a good one. Like, if you're smart enough and you're clever enough and your writing team is good enough, you can make soundbites that are also educational and factual.
Exactly. So turning to podcasting a militia road is obviously incredibly successful. And now also the daily means and the Rachel Maddow Show. We don't want it. She was a as you and I both know, podcasting is a feel that it's incredibly hard to get any traction or what have you. How have you guys done it?
Yeah, I've been writing about this, too, because I love the idea of like podcasting being this like open source thing that anybody can do. But that is really strange. How how only a certain amount kind of rises. And I feel like there are common themes I've noticed about them. I really think anything anyone can do, it is just a matter of like hitting all those boxes. So it's I think, having a really a problem. Down to you. I'm wondering if I should read the actual words, but basically it's like having a catchy title seems to be helpful. You don't need a catchy title because like literally like fall out, boy, you can just make anything. You're not him and then just become a really, I think, great band. But I feel like also, you know, a title brings people in. I can't count how many people have said I just quit on your part because of your title. So it helps. But also the same thing worked with the theme song. People associate like the theme song with a TV show intro. You know how we all sing The Fresh Prince of Bel Air? Everyone in my mom could sing it. Some people legitimately associate podcasting songs with that same sense of nostalgia. Urge them to Sy just looks familiar. And it seems to be a powerful connection for them.
That consistency is like it's time for this show. You know, like I've noticed that's a thing that podcasting has gone for them. And then also having someone that's like really crazy focused on on treating it like a job, because I think with more she wrote me and Jordan were just like, yeah, do you a. You know, we're creative people. We like talking, but. But then you have an A.G. who's like, OK, this is about to be a real thing, like and you have at least one person who takes it that seriously. Just maybe the other people being loose can be useful, too. But like you, you've got to see, like just like any other thing. You've got to see it like like a real show. You know, as far as consistency with The Rachel Maddow Show, I'm a little like when I get around to it, but I'm starting to get more consistent and I see a difference in numbers and more shows. Had I gone from the start, a G was like, we've got to be on time. Like, she like whipped us all into shape. So I really I really credit her for that. And then I learned to do it for myself. So, yeah, having your own leader, like like I put in my notes. Have your own A.
I know if everybody was turning to you can be your own. Yeah. You can be your energy and be your own attorney general or your own attorney general.
Totally. Totally.
And
Then I think one of the other things like being willing to suck at it, because even though you're like, I'm going in and I know it's going to be great from day to we believe it. You still have to be willing to not be great from the start because it takes a long time for people to come around to you if you're like not a household name, which is great, because then you can experiment that time. But also, it takes a long time for you to figure out what your podcast is really going to sound like. It's like. Making music or anything else like it's not until you do the thing that you realize how you want it done. So, you know, being OK with, like I say, seconds, but it's really a thought experiment thing. Not getting immediate downloads, you know, but some people do give me demo. Either way, the beginning is by default. I think you're sucking as part just this is gonna be and that's totally fine. But being willing to deal with that is really important because some people quit when they're like, oh, this sucks. I'm like, it's supposed to suck. Your first few episodes. Generally speaking, everyone sucks in the beginning. If you don't do it, you're never going to get better. So there's that. And I think that was pretty much it. Maybe the last thing was just like being passionate. But of course, the thing they're all pretty obvious is the idea of like being so passionate that you're you're willing to learn about it and you listen to constructive criticism because you're looking over any topic. I think why podcasting can literally be for anything. Oh, one of the other things, it's like being niche. So fusing together two things, whether it's comedy and politics or music and I don't know, beer, I don't know.
Just like the idea of a few things together.
Two communities are really interesting to you and you're so passionate about it. You're like, I know it seems like the niche market is not only more lucrative for ad revenue, but just in terms of like people feeling like they're really in kind of exclusive but also actually very custom catered to them community.
That's great advice. I mean, all of it and especially I spent a lot of testing and it was like, did you prepare that until, you know, an item when I'm bored?
I just I literally was like, how the fuck do we get here? I put in some pattern. Yes.
The consistency is huge. I know. That's just the one thing I realized from the beginning. I was like, oh, I have to this has to come out it pretty much the same time every week. And whether it's good or not in it. I don't know if maybe you can tell me if it's helped you in other aspects of your life, but it's definitely helped me be consistent in a lot of things.
Oh, yeah, definitely. And that's so I even I struggle with it like I used to beat myself up for not immediately becoming a disciplined person the way that I like so other people in my life, me. But I just had to be patient.
So like I kind of sucked and being consistent, but I kept trying anyway. And eventually I got more consistent and I'm still trying to be more consistent. But the idea that, yeah, once I started to make that change, I saw an immediate change in my down low numbers and people of interest and engagement like they want your show to be a show.
They don't want to just see you pop up once and never again. I get people like what you're doing. They expect it and they count on it. So even if you're not exactly consistent in the beginning, the sooner I think you get it down my throat wasn't 100 percent to 80, which is like really adamant about it, but it took me some time to adjust. But in reality, you know, it's worth it. It's worth that adjustment. The sooner you can make it, the better.
Of course, I've been part of a casting essentially alone for the past year, so maybe not as pivotal.
I do The Rachel Maddow Show. It's also fine with me. But I think, yeah, crossing over and getting more collaborations is something I plan to do too.
Yeah. Know it's been there's a great there's a great book in this this whole thing. And I'd like to write one just about from the beginning when we were doing a Miller time, just not not have done even about the show, just about like the experience of doing a weekly podcast. There's there's just a lot goes on as you know, that it makes for good, good material.
Corley It's probably good comedy. Oh, yeah. That's it.
You know, being that, you know. Miller, she wrote, is the most successful podcast about Mueller. I really haven't talked to you since the report came out. And I've really just always wanted to ask you, I mean, what did you think about the Mueller report?
Oh, yeah, it was. It was probably, in my opinion. What that too was here report was like or like, you know, when things came out during the Watergate scandal that were really big deals. But in real time, it seems like people still defended Nixon pretty hard. Like when I look at the archival footage and everything, like, oh, this major thing dropped, but people were still supporting this man and he still got reelected. So maybe we're just in that time where the more report itself, even though it's really well done. I mean, we're still going through with ourselves and like finding and telling and then learning new things all the time. I still commend Mueller for it. But the public is not going to see it like a bombshell. It's just another piece of evidence that later down the road, people look back and be like, oh, shit, you know, it's all in there.
Mm hmm. Yeah. What do you what do you again? As you know. Mueller. Mueller. She rode being the number one podcast on this. I'm just curious, would what do you thoughts also on the legacy of Mueller, which is I think people there's been a lot of different opinions about this report and and and the just everything. I mean, what do you what do you think about the man yourself?
I love Mueller. Yeah. I've never had a problem with him. It was love at first sight. I think he is just such a great person like human today. I've had to study like his wife.
And it's hard to find, like I should say, even though most people usually had one. You know, either he's really good at burying bodies or he's just a decent person.
So I feel like he's kind of the anti. Trump. They grew up at the same time, similar circumstances in terms of having, you know, wealth and being put in boarding schools and all these things. But when it came to the Vietnam War that women took their big, you know, bigger shifts and they also had like similar tragic events in their lives. So, you know, Trump obviously dodged the war and then his brother died, which made him like kind of a cold person. He said that it taught him to never be a sucker because his brother died. Kind of poor, strangely enough. And then Mohler, he went to war because he had a friend that was a year older than him that went ahead. And so he followed his footsteps and then his friend died in the war. And so Mohler, you know, like ended up being even more committed. So he ended up winning. I think it was the Purple Heart and are being awarded a Purple Heart. And I think that's just like a big turning point for them. And so you have someone like Mueller who spent his whole life going the straight and narrow because death to him made him more, more patriotic. Whereas you have Trump, who has always been crooked, though, became especially crooked when he lost his brother, because he just thought that his brother went out in a bad way. It's like just the weird psychological shift for them. You know, I just they process death very differently.
I agree. I love my life. Yeah. Yeah.
I think he's I think he's an American hero. And while I do wish that, I wish they had for reasons I maybe still don't understand, they kind of stopped right at the inner circle. I feel like we didn't get that whole story.
I blame bar. You do? Yeah, totally. Yeah. It seems like there was actually an article that came out. I forgot the source, though. So it's at this point it counts for nothing. But I I remember reading that that a couple of different investigations were shut down.
So people speculate that the military report itself was one of them. So I really wish I remembered exactly which investigation it was. But yeah, when Mark came in, he basically had the authority to like to pump the brakes on a couple of things and it seems like he did. Yeah. I just got to get back to you with this.
No, you're right.
I mean, it's he came in and it was not even a month later that I feel I don't have that timeline in front of me. But it seems like all of a sudden we were starting to hear, hey, this thing's like wrapping up, like, wait, what we just saw.
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Like all it takes is a couple of giggles. And I think people can really see these strange coincidences in the timeline where it seems like Mueller was just, you know, really getting his groove and solidifying everything. But but not quite to a close. And all of a sudden it's done.
And it's just like when I feel like someone I don't know, like signed an NDA or something and like everybody wants to know what what happened. And it's like Miller can't say certain things. He literally cannot say certain things.
His job forbids him. So we need to read between the lines and figure out, you know, who's responsible and also who has control, who can who can fix this, which is Congress. But not every American is reading missing the line. Yeah. So we've got to get there.
I know they said they're Weisman is supposedly writing a book and I. Apparently, the rumors are that he was much more aggressive on the team, and I would I'm just really looking forward to reading that book. I want to know I want to insider's perspective in this thing.
Definitely. Yeah, that's going to be one of those books I like, not like the rest. You know, like definitely a new perspective, a very valuable perspective. And hopefully it changes the game a bit. A couple of his other books came out. I don't know why that journalism put this up, but maybe it was just like secret information. But we learned a lot just from the books along, like the McCain book and the comic book. What's this? Like you said, it is a whole different perspective. So I'm really stoked to read it, too.
Yeah, me too. You know, I just want really ask you one more thing. And now, turning to the last three days, which we alluded to at the beginning, he's declared Trump has declared himself God, the king of Israel. You know, this is stuff, right? I know. I mean, it's like you got to laugh.
Yeah, I'm almost hysterical about it. Yeah. What?
I mean, really, how much longer can this.
Go on.
Well, I feel like the threshold for it for bullshit in this country is actually pretty high because politically, you know, a most weird things in politics and the kind of the politics is it's gonna be strange, but but America as a whole, we put up with a lot of crap like reality shows and just like, you know, the world as it is. So I feel like Trump can actually push this as far as he wants before. I don't I don't think Congress like Nadler and all them. I don't think they would actually. I mean, they might do the impeachment inquiry put into the year. But the Senate, I don't think the Senate will budge. You know, before the next election. So Trump can do whatever he wants. If if, you know, he shouldn't be worried about any consequence. If I were him, I'd be like, well, what do I want to do? What do I want to try to accomplish before I maybe lose the election? So if I had to guess, he would, you know, speed things up and get even crazier.
You know, I can't I can't personally express my I don't know what the word would be. Loathing might be a word with the leadership in the Democratic Party for who literally is on vacation right now.
And unless I missed it, hasn't even issued a statement that the ranting, raving lunatic of this of this the chief executive, this country is calling himself God.
Yeah. Yeah. I just I'm kind of bewildered, too. I feel like maybe they're they're a bit jaded and they're just kind of at a point where they're like, but we're just trying to take a breather like we are with you. But if we don't take a break, we will fall apart. I don't blame them and humans, but the idea that that's how far Trump has pushed us, these people are supposed to be fit for anything that comes their way. But Trump isn't like no, nothing we ever expected.
So these unfortunately, mostly old people are like him, like freaking out and like they like are known to do.
You know, it's crazy. It's scary. And I hope that they are well rested when they come back, because after that, there's really no excuse. You know, take your break when you come back. Please address the fact that our president calls himself the king of Jews.
It's a simple request, right? It's not.
You know, age, they say age brings experience, but it also brings. Being comfortable and not wanting to rock the boat. And as far as I'm concerned, we can't have enough people like AOC. Even if I know she's she's new and they have a lot to learn.
But yeah, the.
The people have failed us. I don't know what I'm trying to say here is just that there's something that happens when you've been in government for 50 years and you don't want to lose that seat anymore.
Oh, totally.
Yeah, I think sometimes even in their first term, they get a taste of that like 99 percent re-election rate. They're like, oh, you know, I have to do with kind of coast buy and not rock the boat and keep my insurance like it sucks. That's why people call me. Not that I would probably ever qualify. But I even want to be into politics like the politician. And I had people that were like, no, I like don't ever if you want to keep your soul. They were like, no. And it doesn't make me think that every politician. I have no soul. But I think it does really test your ability to not let it go to your head. Even the best of us, I think, get into that position and might be like, well, I guess it wouldn't hurt for me to look out for my own, you know, just not do anything crazy, you know, and think you're not hurting people when you're supposed to be fighting for people, you know. So that's just. Complacency. So hopefully people like AOC will convince others to not just, you know, get cozy. Hopefully she will not get cozy. But as far as I can see, she's not cozy at all, which is great. I mean, she said that she has more faith in the system now that she's actually there. She thinks that there's, you know, more opportunities for change. And she initially thought but hopefully she keeps pushing for that change that.
Absolutely. Anything else you want to tell the audience? Promote shows coming up.
Wow. Yeah, I'm sure it's on tour. We got some more tickets for San Francisco and Seattle and Boston. You can get a more sure dot com for that. And then also. Yeah. The Rachel Maddow Show. That's that's my baby. You can subscribe to that on Apple podcasts by the final day. And then the Daily Beans, their daily new show. So check that out, too.
Love that title, by the way. The racial matter never fails to me.
Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. I love it, too. I'm just really hoping that Rachel won't send me a cease and desist letter.
I'm ready for that. Hopefully you won't come. I won't welcome it. I'll frame it, but I'll be sad.
I think you're in good shape. I think that that's it. I don't see that letter. I'm sure she'd probably love it, actually.
Oh, yeah. Well, she's my hero. So that's that's the plan is for her to just acknowledge me and accept my existence and I'll be a happy camper. But maybe I should legally change my name to Rachel Maddow and then I won't have to worry about anything.
That sounds good to me.
And yet, Julissa, it's been so great having you here in counterintelligence. And I can't wait to do it again soon.
Thank you for listening. Follow forensic news on Twitter at forensic NEWSNIGHT. Counterintelligence is an intel pod. My personal account is Eric Levai. support forensic news on Patriot. Subscribe to counterintelligence. Everywhere you listen to podcasts, this is Eric Levai.. And this is counterintelligence.
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