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Eric Levai:
Welcome to counterintelligence. This is Eric Levai.. Today's guest is Alice Stollmeyer the executive director of defending democracy. As always if you want to support the counterintelligence podcast and forensic news we are on patron at forensic news. Today we'd like to thank our newest patrons Craig P. Jim R. And Ari C.. Thank you very much. And here's the show. Alice Stollmeyer welcome to the counter intelligence. podcast.

Alice Stollmeyer:
Thank you Eric. Hi to the listeners.

Eric Levai:
Yeah we have a since we joined up like I was telling you before we we operated for a couple of years under a different name and then I joined up with forensic News and Scott Steadman and we're just on a much bigger platform. Yes I know I know you sort of. You know Scott already right.

Alice Stollmeyer:
Yeah a little bit.

Eric Levai:
Yeah. So Alice I was wonder if you could tell us about. You're the executive director of defending democracy and I was wondering if you could just start by telling us what you do in your role at defending democracy.

Yeah sure. So I found it defending democracy in November of 2000 17.

And. Well there's actually a whole story behind it.

And it might be interesting too for the podcast to tell a little bit more about this actually. Maybe just a quick side note. So my I'm not a native English speaker so if sometimes I'm looking for words that's probably because my native language is dutch because I've known in Netherlands or Italy.

I can only tell your English is better than a large percentage of people who live in America.

Trust me. So here's the here's the story.

So.

I don't even know where to start because it's it's I can have a long version and the short version. I think a short ish version is that in so I live and work in Brussels now which is like the capital of the European Union.

And for the first five years that I've been working here. I worked as a freelance consultant mostly on European energy and climate policies and I used digital advocacy many Twitter to kind of.

Advocate for more ambitious energy and climate policies.

I was quite successful in that or well known if you prefer. I was. I still am one of these so-called EU influences which are probably the equivalent would be a deep DC influencer.

Top 40 I believe right I looked you up.

Yes I think I think this here I'm on number twelve or something or what. Yeah. Anyway that doesn't really matter.

But what is Donald Trump would say number one anyway.

So I was doing this for five years more or less and I was due to my work and due to also to my political interests. I was very very much online mostly on Twitter following news and stuff.

And this is how I saw some things happening in real time like the first but the first trolls.

I can and I can tell you more about that later. By the time of the Brexit referendum which was also.

So almost three years ago now I felt there was so much.

Ethical and geopolitical turmoil going on that I thought I don't know exactly what this is but it might be even more urgent than the climate crisis.

So I started.

Reading and tweeting more broadly about I was also looking at what's happening at NATO level at U.N. level. I was really trying to look beyond the Brussels bubble and started tweeting about know.

Digital things that I was worried about or that I found interesting about human rights about democracy. But still I didn't. like exactly.

Had not put my finger on like what really was the thing.

And this was in October 2017. I realized after a book talk.

Like OK. Hang on. Now I know what's really really.

Concerning and bothering me increasingly so and that's Russia.

And interference in our elections.

And yes. Then I also realized. But there's not really I think an organization that is looking at all the different aspects of that problem.

Mm hmm. And I didn't see much of a response also which was quite worrying.

Mm hmm.

So I did some some research and decided OK. Well what I'm looking for doesn't exist yet. So that's how I started defending democracy.

And Alice that was around. Did you say 2017. Yeah. Yeah. It's very interesting because I don't know if this will be the word that you might use but it's. It sounds like a type of awakening and I know that a lot of Americans myself like I didn't know what a bot was. I didn't know I I was on Twitter like everybody else and I didn't know that people I was interacting with were in Russia in the Internet Research Agency. Was that a similar experience that you had.

Well I didn't know that that there was this Troll Factory.

But I did know and I happened to because I was looking in some some of my past tweets. I was actually looking for the object of MH 17 which is. A flight an airplane that was shut down in.

Almost five years ago when it was flying over Ukraine.

And. In.

Right in that accident. So. Well let me tell me. So tell you about that a little bit later. But. Sure.

Actually I just saw that in 2015 I was already tweeting like that Russian trolls were very fond of the MH 17 hashtag because anytime I will tweet about it they replied well but I have no.

At the time I had no idea that it wasn't like our factory for it right.

Yeah yeah I interviewed I interviewed the Finnish journalist Jessica Aro and she was the I think one of the first people or maybe first or second to let the world know about that factory. And I've read about that flight to I'm sure we can get into that later but that that itself is an interesting story. I saw an article on Belen Kat about that the other day. Can you tell us about what defending democracy your organization does and day to day.

Sure also initially it started as or I thought about what would be the mission.

And so initially the mission was to defend democracy against the Kremlin's habit threats. And I divided those in three let's say pillars.

One was. This information and the other was Soviet text and then the third one was what I call political warfare which is anything ranging from.

Money laundering to bribing politicians to funding extremist party.

He's too getting.

Even states beholden on on the Kremlin via for example energy infrastructure.

So it's it's this whole range of.

Let's say. Act two measures that coordinate that together are what I consider the the hybrid six to two democracies however within a few months.

I know after reading.

Or and talking with more people and also working visit to the United States. I realize that the internal threat to democracy so the much reported about backsliding of. democratic societies.

Is the other side of the same coin.

And I realized it's it's not at least for me it wasn't possible to address the one without the other. So that's.

How now its mission is to defend democracy against both external and internal threats.

Yeah and I'm sorry. Good yeah. And so in practice. Besides you know awareness raising. and trust me there's still a lot of awareness raising necessary.

In practice this also means for us to be growing and supporting communities of democracy defenders and actually when I speak about democracy defenders it's more broadly about defending our values. So that also includes human rights and rule of law. And we both we these communities are both online and offline. That's really in a nutshell what what we're doing. So off line maybe is interesting to hear a little bit about.

One thing in particular that we're doing we started after I visited the United States.

This was in February March 2000 18. I when I came back in Brussels I realized I would miss two things.

After that visit to the United States which was only three weeks one was to watch at 9 p.m. to get in with some friends on weekdays at least. Rachel Maddow.

And the other thing was to have precisely this circle of friends that I could discuss. These kinds of topics. Because I didn't have such a circle in Brussels.

So I did. I sent this to a friend and he said well there might be an appetite for something like it. So first we created Vika. shortly. A long list then a short list and to hash like a really close group of people. And they became they are now the they have become the advisory group to defending democracy. But as a group we also. decided to all start organizing monthly so-called democracy drinks.

I saw that on your webpage. Yeah I do yes I do that. That was good. I was.

I was inspired by the green drinks. They it's a concept that started like I think like 20 or maybe even 30 years ago. I don't know what they started in one city at first and then someone moved to another city and this person.

But I also want green drinks in my new city. And then gradually it began growing and growing and now they're organized a and I think like over 500 or 600 cities across the world.

Wow. So yeah I had been going to the Brussels green drinks and I thought maybe I can apply that concept to democracy. So we started doing that in last October in Brussels.

And the people who were so enthusiastic about it and I could see how it really was working in to to you know connecting people and organizations.

So I thought well maybe it's worth trying to like.

Like the green drinks to make this really a bigger thing.

And so we recently launched the democracy drinks in Berlin Germany and.

Soon probably in September we will launch our first democracy drinks in the United States.

That's fantastic. Well I definitely would love to. I'd love to be the co captain of the Los Angeles as a frequent barfly. I can handle that. Yeah maybe. Who. Who knew the drinking might be the key to solving the world's problems.

Well we can drink soft drinks.

Yeah. No it's great. It's it's like anything that gets people I don't mean the point. I think if I understand it's really to get people out and the two to talk and be around other people like minded people and then yeah. Any ideas that happen are great.

Yes it's really about you know it's nonpartisan.

It's not about defending one particular political party or or even one particular institution.

It's really about defending democracy or defending our values more in general and about just networking with like minded people and being inspired or. But of course you can also use it as an occasion to to give a workshop or.

We did a special edition at the European Parliament. We actually had the European premiere of the documentary active measures.

Oh yeah. I interviewed the filmmakers.

Yeah well they were in Brussels and we also invited Bill Browder for and and three members of European Parliament for a debate after the movie which was I have to say fascinating.

But I want to ask you kind of a general question. It's a very broad question. What what is it about democratic principles that you and I both believe in that's better for the world than the principles being pushed by Putin or any of these authoritarians. I mean what is what's better about what we believe in in your opinion.

I think.

There's lots of different definitions of democracy and it probably means something else too.

So like almost every person I think for me what.

Captures it. It's a fast is is freedom.

The freedom to.

Two to speak up for causes you care about.

The freedom to elect the representative you think represents your your interests and values best. Yeah just freedom in a very very broad sense right.

I. That to me is I agree. That's that's what it's all about in places countries run by authoritarians and even unfortunately in places like in America which are increasingly people free speaking people are under attack in places like that. You can't you can't live how. I mean I'm just kind of speaking for myself now. How people were supposed to live. You're like looking over your shoulder. That's not how we were supposed to live like you but you're supposed to be able to say something crazy and not have to worry about whether the government's going to knock on your door and I don't mean crazy I just mean we're supposed to have that type of freedom you know.

And it seems like. Yeah go ahead. Yeah. What what what.

You know as a teenager in high school I learned about things like you know maybe because she was in the Netherlands I read Anne Frank's diary at a very young age.

And that really made a huge impression on me.

And. Yeah I guess I was kind of.

Maybe not an activist. That's the wrong word.

But I was like interested in things like social justice and honor as later.

I was I was slightly less involved with those kinds of things but because I don't know son. Somehow it seemed that.

You know everything was going in the right direction maybe a bit slow. For example for women's rights there's still work to do.

But generally I really felt like OK we're getting there. But since a few years I'm not close. I'm no longer so sure. And it feels like we we we have to be careful that we're not going backwards which is kind of. Now I know that history is not a linear thing and.

There are slightly. And so on. But I was like Oh my God this is this is not something I really kind of would have expected. Like maybe 10 years ago.

Yeah. Here here in America it definitely. You brought up Anne Frank and it is it has been shocking to know that you know in in World War Two I'm Jewish. And you know it was pretty common as you as you know you neighbors betrayed you know your neighbor turned you in. And now I find myself thinking now as I think about some of my own personal relationships in this country and some people who they look at me differently now I I never change my beliefs. I just started opening my mouth more or they won't talk to me. And I find myself sometimes thinking I wonder if it came to it would you would you turn me in. But of course I already know the answer is yes of course they would. And isn't it strange to look at people you've known all your life like differently.

Yeah. And I'm so sorry to you that Eric. I. I have some friends in the United States who are Jewish too and.

I have to say there were two there really like I mean sometimes we joke about how they can come to Europe each year but I mean it's it's quite serious.

Yeah and.

I knew. I mean even before I started like defending democracy I am because I blogged about it. I. All.

Right. A few months after Brexit we have the American presidential elections in 2016. And I just knew.

That this was bad news and not just for the United States because I knew that. People like or bomb Erdogan and others. They will be emboldened by him.

And that would that it would be bad news for democracy in Europe too.

Yeah. Yeah I actually my entire family hails from Hungary so it is it is both sides so it's interesting to see. Yeah.

He to me is even more dangerous because unlike whatever we have going on here in America he's he's intelligent Oh always a more dangerous combination. Yeah. Speaking of which I want to ask you what do you think are America like. So we do see this rise of populism in many places in the world. But I want to ask you as as a.

You're not an American. So you see America having any unique challenges facing this threat than than Europe does.

Well yes.

I think mainly two things. Well I can think of more but.

So one is the huge polarization of American society.

Before Trump got elected I have to say I hadn't even been. I had never visited the United States. OK maybe just on one one flight stop over. But that doesn't really count. Sure. So I didn't really. I mean besides watching some American movies and series and and so on.

I didn't really didn't really know super much about American culture or society. So but via. Social media I got in touch with a lot of Americans. and and.

To this day even though I've been I have very extensive contacts and exchanges with them like on a daily basis for like almost three years now.

But I'm still sometimes surprised by this by this polarization. Like for example if I need to tweet about a new.

Bill that's been introduced or anything. I always need to think. Like OK was this a Republican or a Democrat. Or can I say that it was bipartisan. Well. And I mean that's for four for my perspective. That was like rather new.

And similar for the question like you know you're here now.

Oh shouldn't Democrats act to get Trump impeached. I'm like. Well you know shouldn't like congress in general do this. Why are you only looking at Democrats. And of course I know the situation but still it continues to sometimes surprise me.

So that's one that the polarization is it one aspect. The other aspect and.

As far as I know it's it's it's it's it's it's related. Is the. Openness or a kind of vulnerability for.

Conspiracy theories and and even before all this I was sometimes. So surprised that there apparently are still Americans who.

Who just can deny climate science. Yeah tell me about it and it's not even. And you know it's often said like oh they don't believe in climate change.

Well I'm sorry but it's not a question of believing it right. It's scientifically proven right. I mean I'm.

My background is in philosophy of science and technology. So. Of course there are some areas of science where it's still.

And I'm not saying that in climate science everything is now has been fully described.

There's still new new facts and details being discovered about course for it for example that the ice might melt even faster or this or that. But.

I mean like. Ninety nine percent of scientists. I agree.

And this has been tested and peer reviewed and what not.

That climate that global warming is caused by humans.

And so this is this is some basic things. And so I feel that.

Americans but also some other countries are. MOORE Well let's say open to to kind of like non non factual information that was a very nice very nice way of saying stupid I like that.

Know you weren't saying that I mean that's what I'm saying.

I wasn't. Now I just. I wasn't. So yeah. So that's a was an environment in which this information from.

Whether that's coming from a hostile state actor or or from increasingly from from domestic sources.

But that's an environment in which dissent is one in which disinformation can thrive.

So in Europe. Just curious. Something like climate science. There is a much less degree of these individuals who don't believe it. I mean is it more just the population's just accept the facts.

Yes of course.

Of course you also I mean here you also have. And I think it's partly due to the also to the nature of social media.

And the fact that.

No authoritative news outlets have less money for.

I mean their business model is under pressure. Let's let's be clear about that. Due to social media.

So they have like less journalists. It's it's it's tougher to to cover everything. And and social media has as in itself is is polarizing because as you probably know I mean we we've become very we've discovered a lot more in recent years about how algorithms are working and how.

How clicks and likes and business model of tech platforms how they are like. Amplifying different positions and that they are feeding on extreme.

Positions on both sides. So yeah there's that. There's there's people or who are I would say.

Yeah I mean even yes even here increasingly it's not about criticizing opinions or exchanging opinions but also about facts.

Unfortunately right.

That's it in America. That's definitely it's a huge problem. I mean I think almost every problem that we have in this country goes back to just education. Just I got a very good public education paid for by the government. But you know there's many places that you go around this country. It's like just simple math.

They don't you don't put the money into it so you can't hire the best people. Although there's many great teachers out there but if you it's just you know people are going to gravitate to where they can the most prestige and make the most money and so and when you have teachers in America who I don't know if this is a problem in Europe but teachers here sometimes they have to buy their own supplies. They it's that's all going to have a a catastrophic effect eventually leading to that the students in the class grow up thinking that there's some sort of option with climate like Oh there's just two sides like there aren't two sides there's the truth and there's something else. And that's a huge problem we have here just prizing education.

Yeah. It's education and critical thinking civics also. But it's also media.

And is this this.

Well there's this so-called balanced approach in which apparently some especially like talk show kind of formats feel that they should that they should invite someone who was not even a scientist.

All right. That they did someone from the other side which doesn't matter. If that's just. an opinion former. Or who hasn't studied science. That doesn't matter apparently. But that's not helpful.

And so you end. And this is. I mean this is not.

Without consequences. This can have real life consequences. I mean. The climate science or climate change is one thing but we also have the the whole anti vax.

Well wave that. I mean this can cost lives. This is. Absolutely dangerous.

I'm glad you brought that up. You know it's funny. You know what I did yesterday. I had to get a second. I had to get a measles booster. I'm an adult male who is already vaccinated against measles when I was a kid and then my doctor said your levels are because of there's an outbreak where we live.

I was like almost unbelievable I was sitting there in the office I'm like I'm getting a measles vaccine again like well I'm getting a measles vaccine because people my fellow citizens some of them are not vaccinating their kids. That's crazy. Yeah it is. I think. in some.

I can't remember which European country I think it was France. I think I read like two weeks ago that they were discussing whether or not.

Children of that were not vaccinated could still attend school.

Like you can. Like they were like considering whether they should adopt some kind of regulation that.

Non vaccinated children could no longer attend kindergarten or something. Right.

Yeah. I think the general definition of my definition of freedom is that it's sort of your freedom ends where my safety starts.

So it's likely you know that crazy. Yes this this. Yes. Yeah. Well go ahead. No no no. Go go. We're gonna say.

Well I know that the whole amendment won.

And because you know when you're talking about disinformation what often comes up is Oh yeah. But you can't like censor people because their freedom of speech.

Does this Amendment the First Amendment and so on but. Well there I think there are several comments to make or on that. And one of them is.

That for example that books don't have human rights. That's true. And.

Well there's there's some more like I would say there there's a limit to freedom of speech. When when when this and dangerous although people's lives.

Exactly. I was wondering can you take us through your organization defending democracy.

Can you take us through. I don't know a typical day what how you start your day and then how how you end it what you do there.

Well I'm not sure there are. Maybe there isn't it took days.

Or maybe just pick one day that stood out to you.

Yeah.

Well mostly it's a combination of things like.

Generally the first thing I do in the morning is open my Twitter. Catch up on my Twitter lists and and any messages that might have on my notifications but also my RSS feeds. Like OK what happened.

Overnight.

Yeah. Mostly desk. That's quite some catching up reading to do.

I make sure that our social media channels have some good content. And because many of our. followers are based in the United States I. try to posts like European related news or posts in them. Let's say during european office hours and then in the evening we share some more American related news. I often.

Also have meetings with all the organizations.

There is like in Washington D.C. Does quite some policy events here and I have to say that I'm glad to see that.

Maybe not yet so much. Yeah.

With democracy and and in general but also more in particular. This information is really.

Getting more permanently on the political agenda. So you can also see that in the number of events that are being organized around these topics.

And yeah of course around the European elections we had for the European Parliament just last week.

You know everyone has been preparing for that for like Italy.

I would say 18 months.

Now that the outcome is like less worse than we and some have feared.

Well it's still not time to sit back and relax. Sure.

But it's a good moment too.

Like.

Take a breath take a deep breath and.

Reflects on. OK. Now that we've done this what will be.

Our next main focus. And.

Yeah. For. For us one of the things for sure is is the democracy drinks because it's it's a very I would say it's a very concrete way of. Bringing people together and raising awareness and.

It's good to do stuff.

Also off line instead of only online because we sometimes we sometimes tend to forget that there is also a life offline. Recently I recently had a discussion with my American friends who you know there's lots of people now.

On Twitter saying oh we must impeach Trump now. But. and you know they're tweeting about that like all day or week or month. But it's important to also go off line and go to town halls and to call your representatives and to because in the offline worlds. you know online people might all seem to agree with you right.

Or there might seem to be like a big majority of people who want to start impeachment procedures right now.

But when you go off line and when you check the polls this is not the case yet right.

I'm a huge believer in confronting especially public officials in public. I mean of course you know politely as well maybe not politely but as civility. That's the word I'm looking for. Right. Because a lot of it was I'm sure as you want you being someone who follows the news you know there's these stories about these people like the press secretary being confronted and restaurants you know that you gave up your right to eat a meal in peace when you started putting the kids in in jails and things like that. So yeah you know I'm sorry. And I think what I think one thing they try to do is hide because when you don't when you're not face to face with anybody it's very easy to disappear into your own realm.

So yes town halls whatever is just facing the public is is a huge important thing. I want to ask you speaking of the European as you said the EU just had an election. Can you tell us just about the result and your opinion on that result.

Well in advance so. So prior to the elections many journalists were afraid that the.

All kinds of populist parties would get huge gains.

Luckily it was not that bad. It's not that it's all good but it's. It could have been worse.

Interestingly the saw the main let's say.

Center parties that is the the center right in the center left. They lost some seats. They are not as big as as before. They're still they're still the two biggest but they've lost seats and parties who gained was not like not just the let's say the the more. A few too two more populist parties but also the Green parties wouldn't quite lot. And the European Greens is nothing like that. Jill Stein Greens in the United States. It's really not the same.

The Russian the Russian greens that we have.

Yeah. So in Europe the Greens are more about you know there should be. We should try to stop global warming. They also care a lot about rule of law about democracy about transparency.

Yeah.

About quality of life social justice and so on. So they did. surprisingly better than than. people had expected. And also because this is in some of the bigger countries so France Germany and what was the other one I forgot a lot of that.

I think also the UK.

This means that overall they are not the biggest they have liked.

They will get the most votes they had ever in their history and it also means that they probably might get a kingmaker role as in.

For example for the. Oh well that doesn't this.

This story is getting too complicated.

It means I will have to explain the EU's leadership shuffle in a nutshell which is super complicated.

Well do your best. We love to hear about it.

Well I think it's not so interesting or it's really complicated but just means that you take it means to take into account a lot a lot of criteria like gender balance like balance between Eastern and Western European countries because there will be several leadership. Posts will become available after this mandate.

Is the president of the European Commission is president of the European Council and the president of the European Parliament.

Plus the high representative which is like the EU top diplomat so that the four main posts that will become available and it's a huge puzzle each for five years.

And so it now seems that.

Yeah. That the Greens might have a role in.

In informing a coalition and and having a say in well some of the priorities or.

Yeah. So it's it's really climate this is back on the agenda for sure.

Yeah. What I wrote to correct me if I'm wrong was that it really sounded like especially younger people were really embracing the more progressive end and a little bit of a rejection of of centrist policies. Was I correct. Yeah.

Yes. Oh I think in general and I actually read a nice article about that today is that in general. young people have suddenly become interesting interested in the European Union because they realize that only when you coordinate with other countries you can stop.

For example Google Facebook or the climate crisis or other things that really as a country alone especially I mean we're not the United States. Our countries where each one of us in itself is rather.

Small. Well maybe not Germany but even Germany. So it's it's only as as a union of 28 countries that we can be considered equals at for example the G7.

Well now that Trump is president you're definitely surpassing us. We are our ranking is slipped a little bit but hopefully we'll get that back and become so yourself become the arrogant superpower we once were.

Well please don't. Oh no no no. That's what I think it's I think it's really important that.

We and in this respect I too I know. I I still know that you know Trump does not equal the United States. And.

That's.

No even a Trump administration. There's still lots of good people working there. and and so I truly truly hope that. the.

Diplomatic relations and relations of friendship and history and that we have built together as allies in Iran over the past decades.

That's not. Not too much damage is done and that we can.

Well that we can that we can repair. What has been damaged and hopefully. stand together as allies again because we will need it.

Yeah. Yeah. The you know they say history has all you know study history. We know what happens when the world fractures into small groups countries nationalism because we've seen it. And that's why when we put the United States in Europe you know rebuilt the world after World War 2 and for NATO and others that it's not like we did those things just for I don't know like it was a fun thing to do we you have to have these things to work out the cause humans need to connect with each other. Otherwise we know what happens already.

We know that this and this is precisely what the Kremlin does not want. Yes they they want us they want. They want to divide and conquer.

And one thing I hope the rest. I mean I know. Well I just hope most of the world knows that the Trump administration are fanatics beyond far would even polls show. And and you're right there are so many good people who are bureaucrats who are working there before then and they. That's tough because you know that's your job. But these people are so far beyond what the average American believes.

It's it's it's a fraction. It's just crazy. It's it's crazy that those people are in charge. Mm hmm.

You are you brought up Russia so Mr. Putin. What what is their goal. What is it. What does he really want.

Well maybe it's good to say I'm not. I'm not really a Russia expert. As in you know I'm like like you. Like most people I'm new to this whole thing. Of course I'm reading a lot about it and reading people and going to.

To two events and and and so on and so on.

But it's not like I'm an academic or have studied it for a long time.

But.

I think there's just I could say two things.

One is that money is playing a big role in all this. It's I think one thing I discovered increasingly over the past I would say two years is that.

Corruption is corroding our democracies. Really it's.

It's it's a big part of the whole problem.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Money. I think that might be the No. I'm reading a book right now called Money land. And yes.

Yeah I know I have. I haven't read it but I know. Yes I know about it. I read some some like a brief brief version of it in an article. Yes.

Yeah but it's Oliver. I think Burrows I'm trying to get him on the show too. Yeah. It's amazing how these these like transnational really crime syndicates move money around the world. And you're right. That's it's just all about that and power.

Yes it is. I mean I'm just. Yeah. Look also at the active measures documentary.

It's about Mafia. So that's. And so I think.

One of the So besides being able to hold on to their money and all their assets which is like about billions also.

Oh and especially stored abroad. I think also.

Another one that makes the. The Kremlin trick is to.

Make sure that you know because they don't have a big flourishing economy.

So one of the things you can do as a as a as a smaller economic power is.

If you can't grow or be a big power then make sure that all the powers might get smaller. And how can you do that. Well by making sure that. for example the some of the core.

Foundations of this society is.

Are getting more or less stable and more globally like.

The rules based order or.

Our our values. So it's really kind of.

Trying to think what the English expression is but I think it's it's.

I think you said it perfectly OK.

Just tear it off like we.

It's like we have it we have this expression too so.

The defeat from someone's chair or the legs from someone's chair.

Oh anyway. Yes. No.

No I get it. I completely get it. It's just I think they they can't become what he wants or he has some kind of strange or whatever you want to call it for a past that there's no more Soviet Union so just rip everything else up you know tear the world apart. Makes it so you look better right. I you know I just really have one more question I want to ask you which is what. So what can the ordinary person do to stand up for democracy. Every every day huh.

That's a good question. I think.

So you already said I mentioned a very important aspect which is every day.

I think doing democracy is not just going to the polls.

Like every four years or two years. But it's really about.

Informing yourself and.

When you see of going to town hall meetings.

Speaking up for when something is wrong or when you see there is a proposal for a new bill. Call your representative that you support it or call your representative. Like Hey. Are you supporting this. And if not. why not. Or share why you think it's important.

Also.

Don't be afraid to speak up with. Friends. Family colleagues.

I'm not saying you need to start like a debate with them every day. Sure. But.

I don't know.

Just just maybe an example like next time someone says you know I.

Don't think.

I should have my children vaccinated or or that it's that it's dangerous to do so for now. When you hear something.

That is.

Not.

Factually correct then you can gently point out hey that's that's not what I learned when I was in school or I don't think that's what scientists agree or right.

Yeah I think maybe maybe maybe we have each of us the responsibility to.

Yeah. Choo choo choo.

To stand up. Yeah to stand up. Not not taking. Not to take things for granted. Yeah. Beef isn't even facts unfortunately.

Yeah yeah. You stand up. You say what you believe in there. If they're gonna believe it they will if they won't they won't. But to me that's what it's all about. That's why. What's going on right now in this country with just to bring it back for a sec to like impeachment. Why. Why I'm so disturbed by my own party is that they aren't even really standing up in my opinion what that's to me that's what the you know. Not to get too sidetracked but impeachment is about it's about bringing the truth to light. Whether he wins or not that will happen or won't happen.

But to just not even try is so it's so strange to me stand up and then the chips fall where they may as they say. Well.

As far as I know and you know I'm following this also quite closely.

You know some some discussion groups and so on. But you know of course I'm not American. So correct me if I'm wrong but.

As far as I know they are.

I mean it may not be called impeachment hearings or procedure or whatever but there are hearings going on.

And slowly but surely the truth is being found out. And I think it was only yesterday that I read a really good article from a legal expert who says you know guys I'm as much in patience as you are. but. as a as a legal expert I know that it takes time to build a case.

Well that's true. It does take time to build a case. There's definitely. You're correct. I mean there's there's differing viewpoints on how to proceed. I think that. I personally think that America's running out of time and we're long since past when really the time to stand up in a in a public way. But look there's people who agree with taking a more another kind of path and I guess you look we'll see what works. It's it's sometimes it's hard to find the right answer I guess. Yeah. Alice how do people reach your organization if they want to contact you or help you in defending democracy.

Well in way I would probably say social media where on. I think.

Most active on on Twitter our handle is defend democracy because defending democracy was too long.

Yeah. And of course our website and and especially stay tuned for the first American democracy drinks in approximately mid-September and I won't disclose which city that will be yet because. yeah.

We're we're about to announce that a bit later. But yeah it would be great to meet a lot of listeners out there. American democracy groups.

And when you get I'll send you an invitation.

Oh I would love to go. We all of us here at the forensic news team and our listeners believe me we would love to be there. That would be fantastic. Well.

Alice is there anything else you want to talk about her. Tell our audience anything on your mind.

We talked about a lot. Yeah we talked about a lot of food.

So there may we may have covered everything.

I. Yeah. I mean I'm sure we could talk another hour week or more.

But maybe maybe we should we should do that another time.

We will. I think that's the smart the measured European perspective. All right. Well I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much for coming on and.

Talking to us and we really like you. Yeah I really look forward to doing this again next time.

Thank you very much for listening. That was Alice Stormer the executive director of defending democracy. As always you can follow us on Twitter at Intel pot. My personal account is Eric Levey. Yea I see Elie VII forensic news is on Twitter at forensic News Net. Please support us on patron at forensic news and we'll talk to you next time.

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