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Eric Levai:
Welcome to counterintelligence. This is Eric Levai.. Today's guest is Jack Bryan the director of the explosive political documentary active measures. forensic news thanks our patrons Angela Craig. Greg Sasha and Jim support forensic news and counterintelligence on Patreon. Without further ado here's the show.
Eric Levai:
Jack Bryan. Welcome to counterintelligence.
Jack Bryan:
Thanks for having me on.
Eric Levai:
Jack it's great to talk to you I actually went back and looked at the exact date that we spoke with you and your other filmmakers and active measures it was it was about six months ago. So I guess the first thing I wanted to ask you as a proactive measures has been off for a year or so overall what. I don't know what was the impact. Yeah. Just where do you feel. What do you see a year from now. You know how do you feel about everything.
Jack Bryan:
Well I mean I think that right now I'm somewhat disappointed in terms of the fact that I don't think the Mueller report has had the impact I'd hoped it would have. I think that also it overlooked a lot of aspects that I think it should have not overlooked. And so I think that I think there's enough out there now that in hindsight that two years from now where I met my approaches I think it's to be a lot like the Iraq war where it wasn't until Bush was basically out of office that anybody that had supported in the beginning was like oh yeah that was a really bad idea.
And now it's hard to find somebody period who stands by it.
I think the Trump Russia story might very likely end up that way where while there is this propaganda machine in the foxes and Braveheart and the Russians as well really having a vested interest in pumping up Donald Trump I think it's gonna be hard to penetrate any new camps in terms of people that aren't into this or don't think of it. I think once that ends and people who look at the evidence without the emotional weight of this is a guy we're really supporting. I think that it's going to be pretty impossible to deny. Hmm. So in terms of the long arc I feel like the Muller report solidified this narrative going forward. You know it's kind of hard to look at. Read more important. Well Manafort was giving internal polling data to Russian intelligence. as a means of quote unquote getting a whole when he's in debt not getting paid by the campaign while the Russians are doing a campaign against America. That's pretty clear cut. I mean it's pretty shocking to me that Marla did not charge that as a crime. But even the fact that it appears in the document and is on the historical record I think makes it that that we all look back on this is that was that's collusion right there. And so I think that's that's a short term disappointment long term satisfaction.
Yeah I think it's yeah it's like the I'm sure you have the personal satisfaction as having made a great film and completed something that you set out to do along with the other filmmakers but then there's the like you said the personal feeling that hey look like I went back last night. I'm like I started watching it again. And I remember the first time I saw ACTIVE MEASURES AND IT WAS LIKE YOU KNOW LIKE HOLY SHIT LIKE I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS AND THIS TIME I'M WATCHING AND I'M LIKE I JUST I WAS KIND OF just bummed out like about a click. Yeah. And I came like really. Yeah maybe you guys know it. I mean you're right. No go ahead. Go ahead Jack.
Oh no I just agree. You know I think that that it is sort of I mean I think that there is still the chance I'm nosy here. Here is the one thing that I think is a positive spin kind of thing is that I think that the Republicans probably wouldn't be doing what they're doing unless they genuinely felt that they could they could control them. And I think that they probably can't.
Yes I think they're not doing a good job of it but I think that that's my that's the only grain of hope that I have to assume that that's the case.
I don't know that it's Jack that's my job. Jack have you ever thought about running for office. Because I was like the best political spin of it I've ever heard.
Yeah I know the answer. That's really wishful thinking as well I'm aware of that for the record.
But but yes I think that it is.
But I think that there is I mean there's enough there that we can and I feel very good about events in the film as well and we've done a little bit of research for a slightly adjacent project the last one.
And part of that involved is going back and being like why was that hard. Well we 100 percent and not not as an actor interact with outside accurate but is it relevant that the real question is can that fact fall into the scheme of events or is it just a coincidence.
I think that some of the things we were like we felt very sure that the thing and other issues relevant to deal gets pushed back. Now going back into it we feel really really good about everything that because even more on the things we're looking at than we've found before.
And so I feel very good about what's in the film I think that this is a story that is incredibly important and will not get less important just because Donald Trump even if he leaves office. And so I think that we have to protect our elections and what it's not like we're living in the Cold War it's a different thing. They have greater access to our our elections and not just the Russians and the Russians put a greater percentage of their GDP towards espionage and intelligence work than other countries do.
So like that. But it's they're the tip of the spear.
But I think that I think that unless we have some real son who really wants to protect our elections this is going to be the new normal. And to be China to be Saudi Arabia where Pakistan is going to be every country is in there with their vested interests and I guess as Americans we're going to hope that those interests kind of cancel each other out to an extent. But it's going to give Americans smart choice until we really really decide to do something about it.
Right. So now I went back and it's kind of amazing actually think about this but to two elections in my lifetime our lifetime have been essentially fraudulent the last one and. Even the George W. Bush. Maybe not foreign influence. But that was highly suspect to say the least. And it's. It's kind of amazing you get used to a new normal. That's very scary. Yeah.
But I also read I think that there is another element to I think that I think one of the reasons that Americans haven't really been catching on Don this is that this has been also this is the worst example that we've ever had. OK so that's the first thing. But it has been there's been an element of this going on in politics and nobody has been talking about it.
And I think people kind of get it but maybe not for a long time in 60 68 makes in back channels with the North Vietnamese to end the Paris peace talks which prevents the Democrat getting elected gets make sure that he gets elected and extends the Vietnam War for years. I mean that was collusion that was to help him get elected. He worked with a foreign adversary. I think the release of the hostages in 1980 is really suspicious. There was a lot of chatter about that being backchannel between Reagan and the Iranians. I think that's not unlikely and I think that there's definitely we're going to book about it that and they have a lot of stuff. Yes. Absolutely. And so I think that you know there's I think that Bush had an inappropriate relationship with the Saudis.
I think the.
So I think that there has been elements of this in the background of our culture for a while that it's been bringing up. But we never really dealt with it. We never really addressed and usually these things come out like 10 years later and so then was like oh carrots you know I mean the Russians various things. It certainly seems that Michael Foot who was a ran for prime minister against Margaret Thatcher certainly seems to have been a Russian agent his code name was built.
And you know it did. There's been a lot of back in the British intelligence is aware of this while he was running for President Saddam Hussein always.
They didn't say anything in our own country I mean you know Roosevelt's second Vice President Wallace was was brought to Russia and was shown Siberian camp I was told it was like a communal living area and believed it and completely was suckered by the Russians and the person of Brazil had died when he was vice president the person that so we've made as secretary of defense was a Russian spy.
So like they've been in there for a long time. But also I should say that the Russians in the 30s had much better penetration than they do now. Nobody knew what they were doing. But I mean not bring now. But they didn't show any point until now. So they've been trying to do penetration operations and things like that. I think that know McCarthy obviously being a crazy person and overdoing everything destroyed any semblance of actually looking for like Russian spies. And then we get dimmed in the late 90s with all these Russian spies the FBI and CIA and we weren't looking for it. And I think in the same way there's going to hit long history as we have been looking for.
Just to backtrack did you just say that the secretary of defense under Roosevelt was was a spy.
No no not going to Brazil. Her doctorate is a Roosevelt had died. Oh Wallace is the person that he would have put in a secretary of defense was certainly Russian assets. Wow. And there were a couple other people around him that were in similar positions. Wallace was not. Wallace has had a Russian spy.
Sure it was a perfect example to use. OK. Believed everything was coming. And in fairness like the Russian propaganda in the 1930s and early 40s to really 30s it was great.
And nobody knew what was going on over there and they had a lot of like journalists on the payroll and they were saying oh nothing's happening in Ukraine. I don't think it's all good. And so it was very easy for an American to believe that at the time and American government because they went to war with Russia on either side pushed some pro Soviet propaganda in the 30s as well. So it's not like these things were coming out of nowhere.
The context in which they exist right. I mean so it's really tough you know when I look at it like that it's almost like. It's. It's really just like there's an underworld that's been exposed. Maybe. I guess it's always been like this. And we didn't.
I think that's a good way of putting it is that I think that's one of the first times I sort of sort of locked onto this and our team is we're talking to one of our real good like money laundering investigators that we talked to the guy that really taught us how to identify money laundering how to spot it how to you know how it works.
And we were like It's really weird because you keep seeing a lot of these same guys pop up in this story and in like this over here on college like all these same kind of guys are just popping up here.
And he was like yes this is the thing that I learned in the 80s like I had been my first money laundering assignment of investigating was in the Midwest.
I found this guy in jail and then six years later I'm getting work. Same kind of thing in Central America and the same guy pops up Well I'm like What the heck is this guy doing here. And he's like I realized at that point and it's proven true sense that it's basically like Guys and Dolls Guys and Dolls is a musical. And it all sort of circulates around this longest running crap game in the world New York. And the reason it can be the longest running crap game is because it moves to a different location every time. And the same guys just follow it around. They said in the 80s the crap game of these scumbags and just criminals was in Central America.
That's where our guys the other guys. Everyone kind of that's where the action was. In 2016 the action with the Trump campaign you see all these scumbag dudes whether it's George Nader all these guys Erik Prince just circling around this the Russians campaign because they were open for business and so embittered.
I think that there is this sort of these network of guys that appear like even the Epstein stuff like that's a that's a crazy. So his girlfriend the girl who is requiring all these women to breastfeed her father certainly seems to have been a motivator guy. Her brother is connected to Cambridge analytic her through really strange means. It's like this. And I think it's basically I think if to look at it somewhere between like this network of conspirators and this very loose affiliation of just scumbags.
It's hard. Go ahead. Good.
And so it's somewhere it's somewhere in the middle of it. I don't think it's I think it's too sort of much to say like I. They're all planning together. But like if you're in a if you're just all you hang out with their scumbags who are trying to like you know do elections in Africa and move money from Moldova here I mean like you're going to meet a lot of the same people. It's a small community.
And so within all of these massive scandals like you see a bunch of dudes that are really connected to each other and you know it's very hard to tell like well is that are they the same thing or are they just coming guys who do stuff together.
Yeah I mean this is their world and I read that that's one of the prevailing theories about Trump. You could tell me if you agree is that it's not even that in terms of the leverage that Putin has it's not even that he necessarily knows what it is. It's I've read that there might be so much dirt that he just doesn't know what anyone has. So it's like let me just play here.
I think that's great. Yeah I think it's likely. I think it's also financial. I mean I think that you can't really take away that motivation.
I mean if you look at you know Trump's life basically he always had his dad you know financing a lot of us have millions doesn't in the early 80s don't take that away from Donald Trump and certainly he didn't earn that money. But he admits that he took money and made more money out of it. And different by the 90s so that is not happening anymore.
And then his dad dies in the late 90s and this is the thing that's not very well reported but really. Basically he stays afloat in the late 90s and early 2000s by just selling off his dad's empire which was actually really well worthwhile. It had a lot of value to it. A lot of buildings in Brooklyn and Coney Island and stuff. And by 2004 he sold off most of that. And so that's when he came getting the loans and that's when the Russian mob comes on but just like so I think that that's that's the real stuff is that he's broken financial loss right now and that he does. I think you're right though I don't think anybody has ever sat down with Donald Trump and said Donald we know what you have done right. If you do not do this we will do that. I don't think you have to. Know I mean I think that he knows he knows they know.
They know he knows they know. Has it been hinted at. I'm sure at some point. But yeah I think you're right that it's there is so much there whether it's this stuff with AFL group or you know cameras up here or the game the mushroom of casino being run out of his building you know.
Are you saying that's not a normal thing really. Ryan.
Yeah and all the fighters that I mean they know everything now so it's just like it's.
Yeah I think that that is very likely but also this way whether or not they had that have whether or not they had a conversation with Donald Trump. If you don't do this we can expose this.
It is clear that they didn't have to have that conversation. They might have but they didn't have to.
Yeah. No I was when I went back I was watching active measures last night and you know there's things you'll know. You know it as you watch movies as well as being a filmmaker and I'm I must have missed this the first time I was like wait a minute the. They were running a.
Like it was in the beginning I think as Craig Craig Unger or someone talking about just the money laundering and Trump Tower from the beginning I was like Oh I missed that part.
Oh yeah. Yeah. And it's the funny thing is that we always looked for like that was our big journey. The film was where do we start this thing. Because initially we thought it was 2004. We knew that a lot of Trump Russian money started point Trump in 2004. So really I Well that's a start point. And then every dive we would do would get pushed back farther and farther and actually we had to make the Bogut and when he sells the five condos Bogut and personally handshake deal and then signed obviously who obviously Russian mobster runs roughly up in New York at that point. That was just like okay.
That's the first clear line of legality. It actually goes back further. The Trump trip to Moscow he comes back.
And then in the 80s comes back and starts saying you run for president. 86.
Right.
And so you know there's a lot of these things. Howard Lauber if you're if you like diving into this jump into that guy That guy has been all over Trump in Russia since the 80s. And also his dad I mean his dad it's own units in Coney Island where Felix Sy grew up and where his dad on a unit.
One of those guns and there's seems to be some I don't know how much because before the 80s and late 70s there isn't really much Russian mafia in New York but there seems to be some overlap in that early period.
The Russian mob with now whether it's just that they're in Coney Island that's what Russian mob is or whether that's like Hey this is the intro all these things are possible or it's also possible that it's a coincidence that ball seems to me that that could actually be.
You know I buildings in Brooklyn it's got you know whatever but it certainly is weird.
But it's it's the kind of weird where you find out that William Barr's father hired Jeffrey FCA at school.
Like I don't. Yeah I mean what that means.
It's like you know ever since and I wanted to actually drop a brief plug as well here at forensic news if you guys who are listening counter-intelligence podcast as part of forensic news and especially if you go to forensic news dot net in the next. Well not sure when but we're about to drop a major article that relates to some of the things that Jack is talking about just in in a different way. So some of this underworld. So I just want to put that out there for people who don't know.
And Jack I'll send it to you as well. Yeah. Yeah. It's related to another not Russia but a similar type of situation. What I was going to say who is this stuff like you mentioned Epstein and you know ever since I started doing more of this and you may agree or you may have had a similar experience like I was just walking down the street and. Like this guy was walking a little too close and looking at me and I'm like I don't know I'm just a lot more paranoid now since I swear. Have you had any of those experiences.
Yes and no. I mean I had a moment of truth. I know but we I could get followed here and there. Yeah and weirdly that was the thing that kind of broke any paranoia because I think that when you when you have it in the abstract like that it's really scary. You know that when you see some funky following you around a train station and it's just like some dude you're like All right well this is what they do. I'm not going to call me. He's just trying to I'm going right. I also don't know who he works for. Like he doesn't have like a huge scar across his face and a hammer and sickle on my ex worker these.
So you know it's one of those things where it's like for some reason actually having people leave threatening voicemails and actually following me where I could see them really made everything else easier.
In a weird way because I couldn't rather owes me. And you can ask and I know that it.
Then I was getting I was just like working myself up but when I can actually see them and like I was actually getting voicemails IS LIKE ALL RIGHT WELL THAT WASN'T SO BAD.
You REALIZE THAT LIKE I KNOW LIKE Belling cat dropped this that major story where they were able to identify like 300 g are you operatives because they all use the same address on their driver's license you're like these people aren't necessarily that smart. That's interesting. Yeah. And obviously it's unbelievable. Just by getting money that yeah.
Oh wow. You. I got to definitely cross-reference.
Yeah I'll get it too yeah. Just just by identifying one because the government used the same address for all these people so that they could identify all of them. Yeah. Also I'll send it to you.
That's great. That's great. Yeah. I definitely would like to use that as a cross-reference for much people I'm like Yeah.
It's crazy and it's crazy to like I'm sure like you know I do the expert but I know a fair amount too. But there's just things that no one can keep track of this stuff like Oh absolutely not.
Absolutely nobody.
So actually the way that I got into this whole time whole thing was I had at least two people in my Facebook network in 2016. Right. Met in real life. Whose Facebook accounts were just dumping hundreds of articles of Russian propaganda collection every day.
And then the day that the access Hollywood tip I would have dropped was the same day that the American government said the Russians were involved themselves in Letson and it was the same thing. That's the emails was leaked. Well that was also the same day that these accounts went just dead for three days just like No.
They did all the pictures off of their everything off. They came back alive three days later and most of the fake news had been scrapped. And like they were it was pretty brazen I mean one of them would post pictures of her Russian passport like TCC.
And then after the election one of them that one in fact started right before the French elections very pro Trump stuff.
Always always always. Then all of a sudden she's like I've become a Sharia Muslim. I'm going to Paris and starts posting about like these are sites that would be good bomb targets. And my suspicion is trying to create a lot of Facebook chatter about all these terrorists are coming in and scaring people.
And I'm pretty certain that that was I mean they would. They were they're messaging on everything Russian was exactly what the Russians were bound to be. And it was clearly saying things that wasn't the case.
And so I had strong suspicions that person was whether knowingly or unknowingly receiving money and they would also travel and do protests and supplements on the protests. And it was very much in line with everything that you would see as Russians propaganda at every turn. You're spending a lot of money.
So is it possible that they just gave over their Facebook page to some entity they thought was not Russian a now and whatever.
Yes but I had my suspicions that that is not good.
Yeah I've been speaking to Facebook. I've definitely been researching that aspect of this propaganda quite a bit and it does appear already that the Trump campaign is I mean they're pouring major dollars and it just I don't know I just feel like. What do you think 2020 is going to look like.
I'm really worried you know because nobody is nobody that is in a position to do something about our elections and doing anything.
Now my hope is that when the Russians and the Russians are doing something this cycle and people start calling it out and it becomes a detractor that if the Russians are supporting you that it actually kind of Richard and that's the hope.
But I don't see any evidence. For that I don't see any. I think that my hope is that somebody gets like a nine point margin over Trump or a seven point margin over Trump. And I think that's what you're going to have to get to win you know.
Oh yeah I was gonna say like. Speaking of which. Last time I remember we touched on this a little bit but the my greatest my greatest fear is that they get that nine point margin in because the Democrats have failed to hold them accountable that it won't matter because they'll just do something.
Yeah I mean my biggest fear is that just people get so pathetic that they don't even do it. I don't know if that happens then at least you have a case. Right. Right we're just like well who knows.
You know who she is. So he or she whoever ends up being the socialist and that whatever and they want to get all the immigrants kill my babies and whatever.
And then you have no recourse. And it's just like well what the heck. Yeah. And it's just like.
That's that's something I worry about that they try to steal this. The thing is that's horrible and it'll be terrifying and that would mean bad things. But I mean I guess I'll be worse in the long run because that would set that as a precedent. Sure. You know I mean I think it's all right. I think there's a lot. We have a lot of unpacking and a lot of. You know a lot of what we really need it to make a decision as a country to deal with corruption.
I think that that's the thing that that thing messes that this is just corruption. Yeah I mean what we talk about oh foreign intervention. Yeah. These are all big deals because it's a winner but it's the biggest deal because it's just corruption.
Right. Like they don't care about you at all. They don't care about domestic policy other than how it affects them. Any foreign country and also largely like a lot of these riches that are banned in elections. So it's like if we can deal with our democracy and money in our democracy then we can deal with foreign intervention and we can deal with domestic billionaires owning our elections. Feel all these things. But until we deal with money in politics and until we deal with that in a real real way people's votes will matter less and people's voices will matter.
Yeah some of the work that we've been doing a forensic news i it's definitely I mean I've been pretty well aware of corruption but I like it. Like I went back to before I didn't realize it's just the some of the research I've been doing this real underworld and these people they do these things basically because they they do get away with it like Trump is getting away with it. That's why he's going to keep doing it. It's not complicated at all.
Absolutely agree. Yeah and that they get away with it and it's they make money making.
I mean there's a thing it's like I think when I started the active measures I tried the film there was an element of me that was like oh a Mafia like this is almost romantic and grandfather.
And then about five minutes then you realize like oh they're just doing human trafficking and stealing from state coffers. OH THAT'S NOT THAT'S NOT FUNNY. THAT'S IT ALL RIGHT. RIGHT.
Like these are horrible people that want that are just like oh yeah I'll do whatever I can to make money. And we're all I mean in some way or other World Bank for it you know. Mm hmm. I mean they go after state assets and they gave me currently. I mean they affect the gas market significantly.
They certainly make it harder and they have they have no penetration.
I mean you know William Sessions is the former head of the FBI is not related to the lawyer. You know they have these guys is they have to accept me I mean as Michael Chertoff is a meeting for Tasha's lawyer in America.
Lanny Davis is a lawyer and you're like No no.
I was going to say you know it's funny. William Sessions name I don't if you remember this but I'm pretty sure his is the name that used to be in front of like a video game. If you were a kid in the 80s like pirate do not pirate this game like and you're like when you were like 8 years old that it's funny. That's so he's so he's a lawyer for Russian mafia I love it.
Yes it's perfect currently acts as the head of the Russian mafia legal counsel. Yeah.
So good for him and his son was until recently a congressman in Texas. And so yeah I mean I know where I'm going with that but it's clear that they have penetration.
And if somebody tells you that they doubt they're getting themselves first right. And so yeah it's a real it's a real problem. You know and it's not just gonna be the again package and the Russians and everybody now why why wouldn't you do it. Russians face no repercussions right. Natalie Yeah no go ahead Jack. No I mean I mean look they didn't come camp demonstration was not enforcing sanctions and the sanctions that they were put on them were a lot lighter than they should be.
And unlike Daryl Bhaskar who through the company economic was communicating and getting internal campaign data from Manafort throughout the election. So the guy who is directly involved is had sanctions from McDonald's company and is now doing business opening a plant in Kentucky right.
Yes. So you know it's ridiculous. I mean it's totally normally a Russian oligarch opening up a aluminum plant in Kentucky.
And not just any election.
Paul Manafort Ford's boss who would give him 10 million dollars to represent Russian interests in Europe and in America like the guy whose job his last big payday was. You're an American. Represent Russian interests in America.
Ten years in Europe. And he becomes the head of the ticket in wonder wonder how he got half for that one. Yeah he's a tough one though.
Yeah. So.
So yeah it's men are Deripaska just being completely cut off and his company now oh no longer being sanctioned and being allowed to operate within the United States is a clear cut message to everybody that if you want to involve yourself with American elections so long as you win you're good.
That's one of the. The great just read an article that one of the great people think the mistakes of the Mueller Report. Is that it. Right now there is a gaping hole that it's OK to accept foreign intervention. It's like the green light. Absolutely. And absolutely. I did want to ask you because I remember when when I spoke to you and your team the last time the Mueller report had come out I remember we talked about that. You know there was a little speculation no hope. I mean what what was your reaction that has come out. I know you talked about it but what do you think when it came out and you read it.
I mean I was pretty shocked by the fact that that is not a crime. I don't know how. That's.
I mean I got to think it's like it's just it's legal then everyone is going to do that. Like if you can if you can meet with Iranian intelligence and be like hi robot army and you should target these areas.
And if I can't quantify the value of that it doesn't count it is fucking crazy. All right I might I'm not turn.
But the same thing what a podcast.
Oh. Oh great. So yeah it's happening right.
It is. It's beyond me. And I think that yeah it's very likely going to become just the new normal. Yeah. That that's that's a lot to do. And so I don't. I mean there is a law I think Swalwell wrote a law trying to make that illegal. But you know also if Donald Trump doesn't know or sounds Virginia doesn't know it's illegal to take that then he can make the case that he can't be charged for it.
Well because he wasn't charged for I think everybody could make the case that they didn't know it was an illegal. Yeah I mean I mean I don't think everybody can say that now.
Now that he hasn't been charged. Oh I don't have to. Ginger did the same thing and no one said it was illegal. So I thought it was legal.
But Andre agreed that the government know look for anybody in life you can't. That's not a that's not a valid explain that anyone can give to the police. I didn't know that was illegal. Yeah like I've never heard of that before it's all to this.
Yeah it's amazing. It's amazing how that works out well.
So you know I think that I think that in Mueller's defense I think that he thought Manafort was going to get Levai.. Mm hmm. I don't think he thought that the judges in Louisiana Manafort and it's possible these guys and this is the most generous possible deportation. I don't think it's possible these guys wanted to hold off on other charges in case they got pardoned as well. So I don't think that's the case. I think that Mueller. Highest loyalty was not to justice but to delivering a decision that nobody could overtly be like. Well you could you didn't charge me I he wouldn't get in trouble from anybody. He would do the least damage to his own reputation and that he's not completely ignoring things. But he's also clearly not. Charging crimes that are. That he any track to any crime that he could possibly create a argument against charging he doesn't charge. Yeah. Which I don't think he would do if he were charging somebody who wasn't president or as much as he wasn't the president. So I think that it is a. Yeah it's a real and the fact that he's also decided that whether the president can be indicted is a political decision not a criminal decision is bananas. And I think that further Bill are also here's the thing. If you want to say that's fine OK do that but if you're gonna do that then you have to give all of the information you have over to the body politic. You can't be like it's all your choice to make the situation. It's a political choice. It has nothing to do the Justice Department has to be done by politicians.
But I'm not going to give you the information. I'm just gonna give you the summary of what I think.
And by the way within the summary I'm looking I'm looking at multiple people who work for the Russian mafia talking to multiple people who work for the Russian mafia over the years and never once identifying them as such. Making any mention of the Russian mafia.
Yeah you know a little crazy. Yeah I think there's always I think there's a chance that I mean I know there's a lot we don't know and I know there's a lot of investigations that he farmed out and I but at the end of the day as they say you really just do have to look at the results and right now they aren't good at all.
Yeah I agree.
And also I think that there's an element of I mean this is the big fear from the big guy. Was it because he had been the head of the New York FBI and then later the head of the general FBI at the period of time which the Russian mafia took over America basically completely took over everything the time after this did brought on them put in prison took over New York you know took over all the real estate stuff and was doing these massive scams.
They weren't even looking at them because they were all sources and the dirty asset problem blew up under Mueller and that they would have these guys. Like for example Whitey Bulger who were FBI assets would tell the FBI information and as a result of that the FBI would allow them to continue their criminal enterprises because if you do you want to have the FBI defense if you want to have an informant in a criminal operation then you have to really allow that person to continue criminal activity because otherwise they're not going to be in a criminal organization. And so as a result of that you have these things like Whitey Bulger take advantage of. I don't know I could just take out hundreds of people in Boston and just inform on other people to the FBI and they'll get arrested and I can continue my profile identifies and become the most dangerous man in America with the FBI help. I think that happened a lot with the Russian mafia specifically Felix. I mean guilt centers commit a crime after crime after crime in New York and the FBI and CIA are constantly backing him up.
And a lot of it has to do with the fact that the Russian mob is doing selling weapons to terrorists.
And he knows where. And so we can give a little information given he did. And as a result of that he's able to you know do money laundering operations. It certainly seems so out of New York. Certainly seems like he had a locker full of guns maybe not but it certainly had his daughter's name in the passport as a password passcode and it's been tied to him and he seems to do all sorts of dirty I mean he's accused of trying to murder another employee of Trump Organization.
Write him up and leave in the car.
And so that that gentleman is only allowed to do that because the FBI is allowing him to do that. But also he does a stock scheme where he's ripping people off American families is ripping off and he makes a deal that does not include restitution. So you never pay any those people back you know stole from people in America right now that are broke because they might feel excited. And he has not had to pay for them anyway.
It's it's a very American thing to make these these deals with the devil and like you said I mean Felix Spader I believe provided the U.S. government if reports are correct Osama bin Laden's phone number. Am I correct about that.
No he provided his drivers as a driver you know credited driver and older drivers no and that's that's that's in addition to later as well as that like it's a lot of stuff that sounds Poppy like O'Callaghan example that he uses to kind of cover stuff up like I did an interview with Isikoff. All right. And on his podcast and at the time is Congress talking a lot to say. And Nader knows that he's in a half million and he wants to read it to Michael Isikoff read a statement saying I had nothing to do with anything to do with the Russian mafia.
I don't know anything. My dad didn't have an. Never even heard of Russia.
And so what seems to have happened is in order to get him to read this Felix Nader presents him with a picture of him and Bill Clinton. It's like a shiny object guess that's kind of interesting looking at folks that are Bill Clinton.
Now what really happened is so exceed or paid some couple thousand bucks to go to some fundraising event in Long Island where he lives Bill Clinton.
What you can do anybody if you get a couple thousand bucks has been on a fundraising event. The book on that you can get your picture taken.
Bill CLINTON Right. So of course no this guy is just. All right. Go.
Yes. That's a shiny object.
It seems like a thing just Russian mob. You're the only type of Trump who's standing next to Bill Clinton. And so it seems like a thing. And it allows him to get anything he wants or just to read the certain on air but it doesn't actually lead to anything. And one of the things that I've having a conversation about Jack Slater early on and talking about this sort of stuff. And I think yeah. But he did track down these apparently tracked down these missiles is what they call the Stinger missiles in Afghanistan.
These are Soviet Stinger missiles in lockstep against him. My buddy the CIA was a former CIA. Like oh he was a stinger missile guy like you what you need.
That was the biggest con we would ever have in the Middle East. The Americans are desperate to get the Stinger missiles that be sold to the Afghans that the Afghans have some of the guys we got from the Russians they got from us but there there were a few of them. And you always get calls from like these con men who like empty shells think oh we get these Stinger missiles. They almost always an operation.
And it makes total sense. What you're saying that having one of these guys because it's just like the easy way get money from the government. You actually have to give them anything you can find empty shell casings. You can't be like you know. And so my suspicion is that that was most of what Saddam gave American government was sort of like shiny objects that look good. I didn't actually do anything improper. The reason I didn't do anything is that from a lot of what we've seen and heard it seems like his bosses and Russian mafia were working well they were selling them weapons and things not going to turn on them. You know he might give a little bit.
And that's the thing because if they get a little bit to stay out of jail and then they can go doing what I was gonna say. I mean they must I. Not again with the limited knowledge that that I have I just from what I can read and what I can see on TV it seems like he must have like it. The thing about let's say Osama bin Laden's driver's phone number that I mean that sounds pretty valuable to me but I don't know exactly what eventually led to catching bin Laden but I would.
Do you think that Sy understanding is nothing that he gave them that led to and he's right to do it. Capturing him. That is my understanding certainly. Well I don't think it was personal.
Wasn't his rival one whose thought was being driven around he's got his and held up in a thing about about right.
Yeah but so I don't think it was.
I think it was had been a former driver. And I don't.
My understanding is he did not absolutely did not lead to entry capture more so here. Yeah.
You know I mean was it Mitt. Maybe it contributed some helpful piece of information. You know. But listen that guy's a liar.
That guy isn't going to really keep in mind is like and I know it's a matter of fact. I mean insider We've reached out to us to talk you know before anything specifically before he was and testify before Congress. I want to talk to before I testify. We didn't when pirates like you can. That's it doesn't seem right. First of all so we let something divers know and they reached out to people like that never happened. When it was me that text messages of his about being like said I want to talk to you before he even testifies.
So you know I think that he is a liar and I think he's a great liar.
That's the thing is like he'll literally go on Chris Hayes and not get called out referred to like we never stop here as a New York real estate guy. There was a there was a Georgian oligarch.
He is connected. I mean. So it's like he knows the one thing that you can absolutely tell about Felix is he knows the clock.
And so he's been it's been meeting with appeared in books and he owns thousands like the Russian mob dude who knows every crazy person.
So the idea that you know I mean I think that he's I think to all these guys just are down for everything. I think. Okay so a good example.
Mm hmm. Maxwell the father of the guy is procuring all the women for corrupting all the little girls rap stinks.
You know I know what you mean. Yeah of course.
Okay. Her father Robert Maxwell was this British media bad guy who was Czech born.
He was really tight with the Russian mob scenes and with another image and the Russian intelligence.. Also he was tight with the Israeli mob. Also he would advise John Major who is the British prime minister about internal stuff blowing out of the Soviet Union.
Now just a year after he did that he was killed. So that might have something within a year of advising John Major his murdered on his boat randomly known as No.
So that was and that might have been the thing that I think that that was a guy who was just kind of in for anything. I think that they'll work with these guys along with that guy. He got money. They liked the lifestyle. I think if you look at a lot of these guys whether it's Alexander Nix came to Politico Felix cedar or Maxim a lot of these guys like they're just game like they like they like doing stuff in Africa because it's like the last frontier. They like doing stuff in America the big deal place to do stuff they like doing stuff in Eastern Europe because you can make a lot of money and it's just a bit of a game to make all of these guys. But I guess I mean making active measures. We hung out Lotta like you know espionage people a lot of former spies.
I'm glad people that knew a lot of secrets and you know you line up in back in Poland talking to us. It's fun. There's a there's an element of romance to that and know one part.
I get it. But also they know how much damage they're doing. They know that they're just stealing from people. They know that they're really helping human traffickers online. That's what a lot of that money comes from. And you know requisition gas money especially from Europe. They love gas schemes and insurance fraud. The things that they are best at is insurance fraud gas schemes and we all pay that they'll pay at the pump and they'll pay in insurance.
Right. That's kind of the key thing isn't it. I was reading I was reading a book about money laundering and that was the author's primary message at the end. He was like you know we all pay for this and not just in money. And you know like and he detailed just a variety of examples where like a like a hospital system that where people die because the oligarchs stole all the money that kind of thing. Yeah.
Oh and by the way. Property. Mm hmm. All right. I mean if you live in Florida you live in New York you live in L.A. one of the reasons the property is so expensive there is that there's a ton of illegal laundering.
Now listen with that there's also an issue of there are Chinese companies that would buy floors of buildings. I think that that is a more complicated issue that that is not what I'm talking about exactly. But that is a similar issue but a lot of that is just like dirty money that people been stealing for other people have been stealing from other countries and just need to wash that money out.
And you know and that rate that affects your rent that affects what you pay on real estate. And so yeah I mean if it actually hits everybody like it if you care about like if anybody is upset by how much we spend on social programs or stuff like that care about this care of this first incident affecting you quicker and this is affecting you that any benefits to anybody who's not a crook.
Right. That that's the quintessential kind of American scam that's been perpetrated primarily by the Republicans that right. Someone is stealing from you but they want you to think of course that it's some social program when of course in reality it's these guys.
Yeah I mean we spend 10 times as much on fossil fuel subsidy as we spend on education in this country. All right. So if somebody is actually stealing from other parts of the industry like in a big way like you're paying for them. Right. And it's not just buying a pump you're paying for your taxes.
Yeah right exactly. And it makes you wonder if people really understood that if they the people really knew about that tape which is available anywhere on line of Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy laughing saying that Trump is paid by.
I don't understand why that doesn't drive you into the street shouting for change.
Yeah I think that it's me.
So let me do the the the pleasant spin like this. This is the thing I have to tell myself that in some ways it does horrible. Don't get me wrong but like the we both agree. And so let me just give the positive spin on this because.
It leaves with Trump. I think that people care about the issues.
Anyway it was just that I like his personality. I don't think he'd win. I think people genuinely care about immigration they genuinely care about these things and so they're not just you know it is at least a policy concern a bath. I don't know maybe not that's like a nice thing for me to tell myself. Like at least it's not just that they actually care about them. It is a debate to have. I don't know. Maybe it isn't the case. I think I'm just kind of spinning for myself so I can do to.
Jack. Look look I. Jack I agree with you and I want to. I just want to ask you one more thing. But I also want to say that the for all of you've seen active measures it ended on the. This is a good weight actually on the show it ended with the people in the streets. Am I correct in Ukraine. Yeah Ukraine Morocco Georgia Russia everywhere they took they took their country back and I absolutely think that was the best way to end the movie and I think I do think things will end that way. I really do.
I hope so. I think. I think it done although the chance I so very likely that he'll go out in two years and that we're able to. But it's also just not gonna come out like it. We can't just put ourselves on the back. One thing that will actually have to do. The reason he bottles is that he's not gonna with things that are important to do.
So I think that we really have to have to actually address those issues once you realize it won't mean anything Jack.
Anything else you want to tell the show or a teaser about anything you're working on at all or anything.
I got a few of that one scripts and hopefully it'll be happening next year I've got a few docs that are sort of different phases that are happening now wish maybe hopefully we'll see.
I hope I know a few weeks if I'm ready to go but yeah things are gonna get awesome and feel like cedar if you are listening we would love to interview here on the show you just don't don't believe what he says. Yeah slippery slippery as character There is yeah it won't be a fun interview probably for you but we'll see. Jack Jack Brian thank you so much for coming on the show and we will talk to you soon.
Thank you for listening. Follow forensic news on Twitter at forensic NEWSNIGHT. Counterintelligence is an Intel pod. My personal account is Eric Levai. support forensic news on Patriot subscribed to counterintelligence. Everywhere you listen to podcasts This is Eric Levai. and this is counterintelligence.
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