CI Hettina Final.mp3 | Convert audio-to-text with Sonix

Eric Levai:
Welcome to counterintelligence. This is Eric Levai.. Today's guest is Seth Hettena investigative reporter and author of Trump Russia a definitive history. forensic news Thanks our newest patrons Andre D. Angela J. Kelsey H. And as always Craig P and Jim R support forensic news and counterintelligence on Patreon. Without further ado here's the show. Seth Hettena welcome to counterintelligence.

Seth Hettena:
Thanks for having me. Happy to be here.

Eric Levai:
Hey Seth it's great to talk to you. So you're an investigative reporter and of course you're the author of Trump Russia definitive history. I know you and I had a little bit of a laugh over this earlier but of course what I was saying was in a conspiracy or I don't if that's the right word but in a in a story that's ongoing was it is it kind of funny to call your book a definitive history when this just keeps going.

Seth Hettena:
It is it is. And I'm surprised that you know that I shouldn't be surprised but I even I'm surprised just how deep it keeps going. And you know the dirty secret of publishing is that authors don't get much of a say in their titles. So but it is what it is.

So that's good to know. I mean as a I'm not a I'm not a journalist by trade so that's that's actually interesting. So you write the book but the the title is more chosen by a publisher or someone else.

Well let's say strongly suggests. Yeah but you know I mean I think they wanted a title that was as clear as you can make it that this is that this is exactly what this book is about. There's no you're not going to get something else if you're buying a book is called Trump Russia.

You know how many volumes theoretically do you think that you could write. I mean in this story it just I mean it just keeps going doesn't it.

It's it's endless. I know I think you know what I've seen is it just comes in waves that there'll be a period of you know a huge flurry of news and nothing and then it comes again. And I think you know and if Trump's you know who knows. But if he's a second term president there's even more that may come. But but yeah I mean you could write you could easily make three or four volumes of this stuff when you when you wrote your book.

I mean were you the first one to. There's been a lot of great books about this topic. Where was years in the timeline.

Mine came out in May of 2018 and we rushed it to get it out as quickly as possible so that we would be the first to kind of stake out the territory. And so so you know what. You know when I started I got interested in this topic when people were still laughing about it and thought it was you know there was nothing to it. Obviously it's a lot more serious now but it wasn't when I started. And you know we wanted it. We knew we knew there was something there and there would be more to it and so we just you know we got it out as quickly as possible.

Yeah. So I want to when I when I know it's going to interview you I always like to as opposed to a lot other shows. I like to start with the like you know like rock bands like they wait till the end to play their hit. I think it's important to just do that at the beginning. Like I Yeah yeah. I think they should do that. I also think in interviews so I want to ask you of all people the big picture question which is in your professional opinion what is Donald Trump's true relationship with Vladimir Putin.

I think that you know I think that there's you know I think there's something to the compromise story.

You know I don't know if it's a film in a Moscow hotel room. I think Vladimir Putin has something on Donald Trump. And I think that explains so much of his behavior and so much of what we've seen. It may be financial. It may be sexual it may be many different things. But but I think that you know I believe the story that that Putin has Trump over a barrel.

Yeah well yeah I absolutely agree. Do you think there's any you think it's more likely to be business or a more salacious thing that would be just you know the. What do you think.

It's tough. I mean he you know he's kind of you know there are all these tantalizing things that he viewed Russia as this kind of sexual playground when he went there over the years. You know sometimes when he wasn't married. And sometimes when he was. And so there is very strong possibility that it's sexual. However you know that this guy was you know Trump is basically you know for all intents and purposes a money launderer so it's not hard to gain five compromising financial information on this guy. And so it could be a combination. Yeah. Yeah.

And you know I want to just as a Segway you know I kind of like how we deal with interviews you really never know kind of what you're gonna get and I like how you kind of call. You just kind of called that like you called him a money launderer and you know I approach this as an I'm an entertainer who works with you know journalists so I'm a little I have a little bit of a different background but I've noticed. I mean you're a pro you've worked for AP and you know you've written for The New York Times but you're not afraid to kind of just call it out. I guess what I'm trying to say is Why is that. Why is that unusual in the world of journalism. People seem so afraid to just call the guy what he is.

That's a great question.

You know Trump's not afraid to call. Call what he sees but journalists have been very has you know there's this debate still going on in the journalism community about whether to say he's a liar or not. And I just you know I think I'm not I have a I have a position that most journalists don't have where I'm not working for a news organization that imposes its own kind of standards on me. So I'm more of a free agent I have more freedom and I feel like I'm speaking for journalists who don't have that freedom.

So I feel like it's incumbent on me to kind of to just say you know to say what what everybody else's wants to say but camps.

So you're saying that let's say hypothetically I don't know I'm just spit balling let's say a big national paper. They they don't have the freedom to just kind of call effect like that effect.

Well there are debates within the journalism community right now like if you say if you you know Donald Trump doesn't tell the truth we all know that. But if every time he does that you say Donald Trump lied today. The danger I think from the editors view is that you will look like you are you know you are just plain hot you know you are out to get this guy right. And you have an agenda. So I think that because his behavior is so extreme and so exaggerated if you call it every time it just looks it makes you look it makes you look it puts you in a bad position if you say that Donald Trump lied today and said this after you do that 10000 thousand times which is what the numbers are. you would look like you have an agenda. So I think that's that's the danger of you know being and being at a newsroom where you have to kind of balance these things and you know I know they're also concerned about where they're you know New York Times is concerned about where its reporters appear and what. So when I was at AP there were you know they they they were very careful about what I could say and one couldn't say. So I don't have those restrictions so I'm I'm I'm afraid.

It's very interesting to know. I mean and I know here at. Forensic news I mean I'm not going to speak for the other reporters and the other staff but I know that everybody we're entirely patron funded so I think that everybody has the belief that no no one a forensic Newsies hides there are really political beliefs and I don't I haven't. And it doesn't affect the reporting it's just I think it's an okay way to carry yourself. I don't think it you know I don't think the reporting suffers. I have a lot of admiration for the Straight newsman or newswoman that that model. But I also think it's OK to occasionally you know even Walter Cronkite called it like he saw it at least a few times.

Right. Right. Right.

But if you represent an organization with thousands of people in it and one there's one person doing something you know that can be called out that reflects the entire organization.

Yes said that that's the flipside of it.

I guess it's like when you have any boss you know. Exactly. If if someone else is cutting your check you don't have the power that you. That's what I. Exactly.

Speaking of what you were saying there was a story recently about the so we did find out that I guess the New York Times limits and only mentioned not being able to go on Rachel Maddow. I mean what were you what were your thoughts about that.

You know I think Trump you know Trump's behaved like Trump is just so unusual and his behavior puts is literally putting pressure on Joel. I mean he this guy has gone to war with the press. I mean he did. This is a guy declares the enemy the people you know. You know you can't you know you can't say a more outrageous thing. And so he is he is putting the press in a box where it's you know he's whatever he's failing in his foreign policy his domestic policy is going nowhere he's got no legislation. But you know he can he can make war with the press and that's always going to win points with the base and that's what he's done. You know and so it puts journalists in a really awkward position where they're trying to be the straight man to you know to this comedian who is you know going off the rails here.

Yeah. And like you said look I mean I get it. You're in a very tough spot and I look I'm a person who's had a lot of jobs so I get it when especially in something like journalism where it's so hard to get a job and so many jobs are are hemorrhaging because of all these other things that are going on. I can see how that would really put you know it puts fear in you hey everybody you've got a family and you got mouths to feed.

But so but then the other side of me just in my world as an entertainer like you know you've got a heckler as a comedian you take him down. That's just it. Right. Right. And I look at it from a human perspective and I'm like like just just speaking let's say for about the White House press corps like you know someone insults me to my face. I mean it it's not going to end well for him.

All right. Like I'm like wow like how can you just stand there and take that. Right.

But well yeah you know that this is Trump's This is unique to Trump. This you know this this making war on the. You know I mean they're so destructive in so many ways but that is that is one of the big ones that is undermining freedom of the the free press. And it goes deeper. It's that this is a guy who is manufacturing his own truth. Yeah. And you know he's going to take out who's in his way who who tells a different story whether that's the FBI or the CIA or the press or people in his own administration or whoever they're getting out they're going to they're they're getting out of the way and you know as long as this guy's in the White House. So that's you know that's the situation we're in right now.

Seth can you take us through like maybe like the Genesis when you decided you were going to write Trump Russia to yeah from beginning to publishing date.

Definitely. So you know I started first while I grew up in New York. So I knew Donald Trump from a very young age.

I'm so sorry. I mean sorry. But he was nobody there would you know he was always this guy it wasn't a big deal because he was this cartoonish character. He was this tabloid creature that's kind of big mouth loud mouth guy who would kind of jump in and he's not the only person in New York who does this. There are people who you know just jump into every controversy and get in front of it one way or the other. But that was Donald Trump. And so I knew him. You know I in the book I relate this that I was in Trump Tower when it opened Mike you know. And you know it isn't. It was impressive it is impressive what he felt there and when I was following the campaign and you know these things started popping up about Russia and I just couldn't square to my head how The Donald Trump I knew from New York was somehow connected to Russia. And you know so I felt that more and more closely and just to understand that for myself I started writing a web site just started a Web site just trump Russia dot com Trump dash Russia dot com and just started writing and try and explain it going back and looking at his business deals and all these mobsters who would show up in Trump Tower and you know all his shady deals with Russians and Russians buying is mansions in Florida for overinflated prices and so on and so forth. And I really didn't. I was just honestly I mean this I was writing for myself and didn't know how I didn't really care how many people were following it. But one day a book agent contacted me and said you know have you thought about turning this into a book. And so that's how it got started. And you know we pitched it and eventually a publisher picked it up and we were off and running.

Well you know. So really what you're saying is is that you you started doing it it was for you wasn't it wasn't even. I mean it was it was a it was the best reason to do anything because you want. You were curious about what was going on.

Yeah I was. I wasn't I wasn't. You know I didn't I wasn't selling ads I wasn't hawking something I was just trying to understand it and the way I do that is just by writing. And that's kind of my nature. And so that's yeah it all kind of came together from there.

And I mean big picture what did what is your book about. I mean what did you come away. What does the reader come away from it if they were to some viewer to sum it up in like one or two sentences as hard as that is.

So you know there are a couple of things to understand that the what happened in the 2016 election was not a one off of that that Donald Trump has a relationship with Russia that goes back decades and more importantly he's been chasing Russian criminal money for decades. And that was kind of one of the pillars of his business when he started to fail. And in the 1990s and he has to continue that that relationship has matured over time. You know he graduated I guess you could say graduated from his dealings with the Italian American Mafia in the States to Russia. And I you know I thought that was a message that needs to get out this is a deeply compromised man. And and that you know there's a history to his relationship with Russia.

It's the only thing he ever graduated from by the way himself. Yeah yeah. I was always going to get in those one liners but no it's it's that whole.

I just wonder you know if any reporters who are tracking his transcript story did anyone ever get on the foot that he would hit Michael calling.

You know at Fordham Law or Fordham or just in general like I I'm not even trying to pile on the guy I just what I see in front of me. I don't understand how this person was able to pass you know to graduate. So I don't I don't know.

Yeah I mean you know I I don't know somebody somebody probably you know that's the thing with Trump.

It's like a.. It's like an amusement park for journalists. There's just so much there and you just you can you can spend forever and one ride and that'll be that'll be a career for for most people. But he's got so much going on that it's almost impossible to keep up with it all.

An amusement park for journalists. Really. That's good. Really. Yeah. Right.

So we learned from the New York Times that that amazing story that exposed his kind of finances that basically he inherited four under 500 million or something like that over a lifetime. And then when that was gone. Is that when the Russian money started to come in along in your opinion.

Yeah so. So yeah there's this there's this time frame the Washington Post did a really good take on this too. That is some time in the mid 2000s. You know this guy he called himself the king of debt. Right. That was his own kind of self branding. And and then all of a sudden he started switch to cash and that that to me is is not explained by his business. You know he says he has had enough cash flow to maintain that. I don't believe that. I think that there was money coming in from external sources and I think that's when Russia took a big stake in his business. Yes.

How. Like big picture. Well what I don't understand what a lot of people don't is that the crime involving this even just one person him is it's like off the charts. What do you have any insight into why there was no accountability. Why all these years. You know yeah.

That's a great question and I get asked that all the time. Really. Yeah.

You know and this goes back a long. This was a guy who you know they were grand juries. This is even before this in 1980s when he's just getting started in business there were multiple grand juries in New York sniffing around him you know. But he would refuse to refuse to testify at what he had. Roy Cohen the infamous mob lawyers as his personal attorney then and he would just he would Stonewall and refuse to cooperate and refuse to talk and he would say he's very good at getting out of situations like he is he is walking you know over the like tip toeing over the line repeatedly and doesn't you know never learns. Just just goes over to the next line and tipped over is that right. And just. And just just kind of mows down you know anybody who gets in his way. He has lawyers like Michael Cohen you know not a very good lawyer but he's out he's better lawyers who are who are who are who are massaging the finances and the corporate structures and the documents to make sure that it's just on the gray area of legality you know. And that's that's how he operates and he's kind of he has always been in the gray areas and that's he's a hard guy to pin down.

And if you could even you know if you're coming after him he's coming after you. So you know that combination is made it made. Yeah. Let him get away with murder for a long time.

It's it's hard to reconcile like you know not to. I mean what I relate that to is what's going on now I see the same thing. And again I'm not trying to jump off on a tangent but I see the Democrats and what they're doing in and not just them and just it's it's I guess I don't understand why no one is able to stand up to this man. It's not like it just seems like it's a recurring thing like they didn't the law enforcement didn't stand up to in the 80s and now we're living this again. I mean what is about this one person that's able to get away with this.

You know it's almost worth a book in itself.

You know when I talked there you know when I went back and talked what I did is I went back and talked to the FBI agents who kind of came across him in the 1980s and you know so there are circumstances that that that let him get away. So let let me lay it out for you. One was when he started dealing with the Russian mafia. The focus was not the focus was on the Russian mafia. So so his name is popping up in deals with the Russian mob kind of peripherally. But the FBI and prosecutors are so focused on getting these gangsters that that he he is kind of you know set aside and there's this guy in my book who says something like you know we should've been looking and we were looking at we're looking one direction we should've been looking the other. The second thing is is that real estate you know if you owe a few operate a bank you have to deal with the you know with the Federal Reserve if you run a company you have to deal with state regulators if used our public company.

You have the S.E.C.. So there are all these people looking at all these different businesses except for real estate and for years that was kind of this no man's land that you know there was no that it was kind of a free for all you set up a shell company and you can buy millions of dollars worth of real estate really easily in this country. And there was there was no way to stop it. And so you know Trump saw that as a business you know other people see that as a danger sign. He sees it as an opportunity. And you know he's following these. He's following the money. You know he's following the dirty money.

It's like it's funny because I think about it like like for example. Like simian Milosevic or however you say it. The boss of bosses like I get why that guy's a criminal mastermind because that guy's really smart. And that's right. Like I I'm almost like insulted that the United States of America is like you can't. Like if we had a guy like Moggill leverage and he was president I'd be like well I get that because this guy was smart and ruthless but I don't know. I just I don't get the whole Trump thing but maybe at this point I'm just talking to myself you know like you've you've laid out very well how he is able to skirt the rules and right.

Right. And you know he you know there's there's there's part we're missing pieces of the puzzle here. Right. So to go back to original question like you know how many volumes of this book will there be. I mean you know we don't have all the pieces you know why he decided to run in the communications you know. You know the Mueller report said you know as you didn't say no collusion it said they didn't find evidence of it. And you know Trump is a guy who is anybody who's going to talk about him. This is a person that's going to get crucified. So you know I don't think it's it's too far fetched to think that people you know didn't tell the full truth or stayed away or didn't you know didn't talk to Mueller stayed and stayed out of the country or whatever and we still don't know you know what was going on. So yeah we're all puzzled by it. But but I think you know in the end it's going to. It will come out and my book will be seven volumes by then. We will know the story.

Well Seth now I want to thank you so much for coming on counterintelligence. And guys if you want to check out the book it's Trump Russia. A Definitive History pending sets ten other volumes that will be coming out. So thank you so much for coming on the show.

Oh it's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me. I really enjoy what you do. Yeah. Thanks for taking the time.

I hope when you get that let us know if you want to come back on when you have your next scoop out even just for a quick hit. That would be amazing. That was great.

I'd be happy to do it.

Okay great. We'll talk to you soon. Thank you for listening. Follow forensic news on Twitter at forensic News Net. Counterintelligence is an Intel pod. My personal account is Eric Levai. support forensic news on Patreon. Sponsors can contact counterpart at Pro Tom Malcolm subscribe to counterintelligence everywhere you listen to podcasts. Take care.

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